59 replies to this topic

[pyrotechnist]

Thats what it seems to be, Martyn nope this is the first time as I normally do tests near bonfire night with small compositions as thats all I mainly test these days really to find new effects etc. They where not bothered as such with fireworks just that I had chemicals in the first place.

[whoof]

anyone without a license please do be careful cause they are cracking down by using the most stupid excuses.

WHAT Licence ?

[pyrotechnist]

A manufacturing license, if they got me in chemicals what would they do on people manufacturing complete pyrotechnical articles.

[exat808]

It is possible that the warrant was sworn under the 1883 Explosive Substances Act.
Section 3 of the Act states -

3 Attempt to cause explosion, or making or keeping explosive with intent to endanger life or property. (1)A person who in the United Kingdom or a dependency or (being a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies) elsewhere unlawfully and maliciously—

(a)does any act with intent to cause, or conspires to cause, by an explosive substance an explosion of a nature likely to endanger life, or cause serious injury to property, whether in the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland, or

(b)makes or has in his possession or under his control an explosive substance with intent by means thereof to endanger life, or cause serious injury to property, whether in the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland, or to enable any other person so to do,

shall, whether any explosion does or does not take place, and whether any injury to person or property is actually caused or not, be guilty of an offence and on conviction on indictment shall be liable to imprisonment for life], and the explosive substance shall be forfeited.

This legislation is used for explosives offences other than terrorism and has a very broad definition of explosive substance -

The expression “explosive substance” shall be deemed to include any materials for making any explosive substance; also any apparatus, machine, implement, or materials used, or intended to be used, or adapted for causing, or aiding in causing, any explosion in or with any explosive substance; also any part of any such apparatus, machine, or implement.

[Mortartube]

Surely it is up to the police to prove that there was INTENT to endanger life or property if they use the above quoted regs. I would suggest that if Pyrotechnist had made the authorities aware that he was working within the 100g rule on more than one occasion, and they only found raw chemicals but no explosive substance, that proof of intent would be almost impossible.

He has done the right thing by keeping them informed of the situation IMHO and has clarified his purpose for owning those chemicals.

I hope that they will be raiding all of the local garden centres, as they often stock KNO3, Sulphur and that dangerous barbecue charcoal, and all under the same roof.

[exat808]

Just another thought from the Fire Safety perspective. The legislation covering the duties of people to take fire safety precautions and risk asess etc etc is found in the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005. However, Article 6 of the Order specificaly states -
6.—(1) This Order does not apply in relation to —

(a)domestic premises, except to the extent mentioned in article 31(10); -( Article 31 is the powers of a Fire Authority to issue prohibition notices in dwellings)

Hopefully the Fire Officer did not quote this piece of legislation to you!

Another question - Did you sign a disclaimer for all your chemicals?

[dr thrust]

just cant understand it at all, seeing you can legally buy everything on the list.
exat, as for "apparatus" would that include commercially available pyro tooling, ie rocket tooling?

Edited by dr thrust, 31 July 2011 - 11:34 AM.

[exat808]

just cant understand it at all, seeing you can legally buy everything on the list.
exat, as for "apparatus" would that include commercially available pyro tooling, ie rocket tooling?

Hi - yes its a fantastic "catchall" definition ( well - from an enforcers perpsective). But to put a bit of balance on it, this definition can only be legally relied upon when considering offences under the ES Act 1883 that I quoted above. It cannot be relied upon for MSER manufacturing breaches for example.

[pyrotechnist]

Sorry for late reply, been reading one of the documents they claimed to get me on which is "Enforcement of Regulations on the Storage of Explosives: Advisory Guidance for Local Authority, Fire Service and Police Staff" section 25 first paragraph and section 47.

I have always been open with the police throughout my hobby of what I have, store and tested under the 100g exemption. I had no completed articles nor did I have compositions stored within any dwelling accept for my individual chemicals, tools and tubes of which most are from bought fireworks or homemade tubes. The fire officer said that oxidizers should not be within a bag within a box, this is how my oxidisers came and according to MSDS should remain. Though the potassium nitrate was empty at the time, the only ones left where calcium nitrate of which is useless.

I did not sign any document to for the chemicals to be sent and destroyed and according to the above document they should have first sent them for analysis or have had a proffesional around to deem the substances unfit. The chemicals should have been sent off for testing and if deemed dangerous seized otherwise no action taken.

It also states of they are doing me for manufacture even though they had no samples, no evidence etc they would need a HSE guy to be used for the licensing authority.

Domestic Premises
55. The enforcing authority for MSER is the licensing authority or (if there is no license or registration) the authority that would be the licensing authority for those premises. This differs from the normal allocation of enforcement responsibilities under the HSW Act both in respect of work places and in respect of domestic premises.

The police would be enforcing authority if for storage of explosives under MSER.

[Vic]

as for "apparatus" would that include commercially available pyro tooling, ie rocket tooling?

Yes and they can probably can take all your rare books and destroy them as well.
They can also potentially put you away for life so you can not utter a word of your knowledge.

[exat808]

Domestic Premises
55. The enforcing authority for MSER is the licensing authority or (if there is no license or registration) the authority that would be the licensing authority for those premises. This differs from the normal allocation of enforcement responsibilities under the HSW Act both in respect of work places and in respect of domestic premises.

The police would be enforcing authority if for storage of explosives under MSER.

Not quite as simple as that -
The police would be the EA only in matters relating to storage and only if the explosives kept were those that would, if classified,are not on Schedule 1 to the Control of Explosives Regulations 1991. In all other cases relating solely to storage the Local Authority is the EA. If there are any issues relating to unlicensed manufacture the the EA can only be the HSE.
The police cannot prosecute or enforce MSER in respect of manufacture. They can gather information and evidence and assist HSE in any investigation.

[pyrotechnist]

This is what I dont get they didnt specify to an extent what they where doing me on but they tried deeming the storage of chemicals as being really dangerous to myself an any surrounding even though they are all pretty innert safe chemicals stored in their own containers separate from each other and in either originally boxing or cabinet. The fire officer had no knowlage at all of chemicals, anyone that says potassium nitrate will cause a piece of burning dowel to explode are just idiots!!!

I will be taking manchester police and fire services to court on this matter to fight it through. I have always told them the truth and been penalised for it. The police explosive liason officer was fine with my setup and these where when they went and informed me they would get a HSE inspector in to go through my materials and setup and tell me what they think though they cut it short and got a fire officer down from eckles to make an ill informed decision on no experience whatsoever on the matter.

[Mortartube]

Do you have anything in writing from the police explosives liason officer, or even his name. If he passed it as fit and no problem, then that is very good ammunition on your side of the case.

[Karl Mitchell-Shead]

SO you were not arrested OR cautioned?