59 replies to this topic

[maxman]

I just don't get this. What am I missing?? How do you get from letting off a bought firework regardless of who dosent like it to getting your house raided for chemicals?

Lets jump to the raid: I would of thought that should police find chemicals then they are no experts on what things are and would call in experts to see if all is safe "Royal logistic corps" ??

£1000 or 1000 lbs whichever seems an awfull lot off chems to explain 100g test batches anyway.

Then to not know what you are charged with!

I am bewildered

Maxman

[Karl Mitchell-Shead]

When I was subjected to a raid it was on the following basis, I had been seen testing stars using a star gun, neighbours had seen me burn composition in the garden (nothing that creates a report) and I had hosted several £1000+ cat 3 displays in the year or two prior to the 'altercation'. The alarm was raised when a neighbour (an ex captain in the RLC EOD) saw me in coveralls, respirator gauntlets etc disposing of some newspaper contaminated with Barium Nitrate. Understandnably this raised alarm bells and the relevant authorities were notified. The resulting raid was a result of my indescretion and probably stupidity, thankfully times have moved on, lessons were learnt and I consider myself somewhat a professional within the industry.

I actually received a caution from a HSE explosives specialist who had travelled from Liverpool to be a part of the raid (Dr something or other asian looking guy) for improper storage and basically being foul of MSER. He was accompanied by the TS Petroleum and Explosives officer, the area fire inspector, a bomb disposal expert and the Police force who ultimately arrested me for 2 blackpowder offences (Possession of an explosive substance for unlawful use and manufacture of an explosive substance for unlawful use) in interview it was put down to my wrongful yet sort of understandable interpretation of MSER (this was before the correct interpretation was being hammered into everybody both on here and in other places by those in a position to do so) thankfully this was taken no further than 11 hours in a cell and a caution on my criminal record. I consider myself to be VERY lucky after looking at a case in which an 18 year old lad had been stopped and found to be carrying ~200g of just blackpowder in his vehicle and a small banger type device, he ultimately received a 2 year jail term.

[pyrotechnist]

No they did not arrest me, maxman I had always been open with the police, HSE and fire service of my testing of comps within the realms of the 100g exemption of MSER 2005 though my buying of 25kg sacks of potassium nitrate raised bells which they told me about on a different occasion though they stated clearly that they where not worried. So they put two and two together and tried making out I was manufacturing complete devices though none was found and no substances where found accept for chemicals and spent tubes from bought fireworks etc. They where originally waiting upon a HSE inspector but decided to draft in a clueless fire officer, anyone that states ammonium sulphate or sodium bicarbonate is dangerous and a danger to be in close proximity to an oxidiser is just sad!!! best stop baking your cakes and bread. He also saw my cooking tin which he had the cheek to ask me did it end up burnt like that within the premises, yes I am really that thick aint I! so he said I was careless and he was not satisfied with my storage of chemicals and the packaging they where in which where all HDPE containers with labels and some where in plastic sacks within double walled card boxes from transport.

The chemicals on the list are not cheap and so are close enough to the amount you specified maxman, I did do alot of small batches not long ago as my liking is within finding new effects or formulas etc.

[megabusa]

Firstly - Sorry to hear this Pyrotechnist, this is one of my fears also.

Don't take this the wrong way - but I think you may have got off lightly. It could have been worse ranging from a criminal record to serving a sentence. Despite the "expert" being a joke, it is obvious what you had the chems for even though they had no direct evidence.

I don't know how much stuff you make, if any, but I know I would not like to get raided, especially leading up to November !

After all, many people in this hobby don't buy KNO3 in 25Kg batches to follow the '100 gram rule', some make devices ranging from small garden fireworks through to big shells. If they did find some devices you had made it could be a different story.

Speaking to others in this hobby, some are upfront with the authorities, such as yourself, whilst others stay quiet. The ones I know who have informed the authorities say the police 'turn a blind eye' as they appreciate it is a hobby & we are not intending to cause harm or be anti social to others. HOWEVER, if someone makes a complaint the police have to act. It is for this reason that I now do all my testing away from where I live in a deserted place when no-one else is around. I used to test things (of sensible & appropriate size) in my garden, but I began to think - "what if one day someone calls the police & they come round to have a chat & realise it's homebrew ....."

On bonfire night or NYE I fire stuff in the garden (again - sensible sized) along with bought pyro & I figure it blends in with everyone elses.

It seems to be best to not do anything that attracts attention if you are in this hobby. After all, letting off fireworks anytime before 11pm is legal as I understand it, but if someone complains about noise, disturbance etc. & the police come round & they find out what you have in your shed / garage ......


Cheers,

Phil.

[pyrotechnist]

I know what you mean but they need evidence to send you down and I showed them the bought firework in question, they used ill advice and should have taken a second opinion from a HSE inspector who would have had more experience in the matter. I will be taking it further and taking this to court to try and either get compensation or over turn the matter as I believe I have a strong case as all the chemicals are fine to have, I also used the 25kg of pot nitrate for gardening and so thats took one of my lively hoods away and a source of income which to me is dam right outrages when everything was stored to what the MSDS states.

I just hope they dont use such lax methods on sending anyone else down for testing under the 100g exemption or anyone who makes shells that go over such exemption ors we will be taking 2 steps back.

[whoof]

HOWEVER, if someone makes a complaint the police have to act. It is for this reason that I now do all my testing away from where I live in a deserted place when no-one else is around. I used to test things (of sensible & appropriate size) in my garden, but I began to think - "what if one day someone calls the police & they come round to have a chat & realise it's homebrew ....."

Pretty much my conclusions too, letting off a Cat 2 in my garden would be borderline.
Having said that there are a couple of nerks close by who have been known to let off shells.

Pyrotechnist
Best of luck, sounds like you need to establish a secret lair somewhere

[pyrotechnist]

Just an update they said they seized them under the "Health and Safety Act at Work 1978" section 25 though this again seems like substances that are explosive or flamable in nature which most of mine where not and seems to correspond to fireworks more than anything or explosive articles.

[whoof]

Ahh so your home is also a place of work and not a Private dwelling ?

[megabusa]

As I understand it the Health & Safety At Work Act applies to employers who have a duty of care to their employees.

This would not apply to your home unless you employed people to work there, or from there.

I could be wrong but that's my understanding.

But in any case, as you say, nitrates are a common fertiliser used in gardening, so if you had a gardening / landscaping business run from home then it is likely you are going to keep required tools & materials. If all are labelled correctly & have MSDSs then that's a good start, but you also have to have a COSHH policy with a manual containing procedures specific to your place of work.


Good luck if you decide to take it further - just be careful not to make it worse for yourself.

[Rick]

Submit a formal complaint to the LA requesting a full investigation and copy of the report.

[pyrotechnist]

The building is a private property but I store the materials I use in my business here so it aint a work place to be honest and it wouldnt be classed as one to the councils point of view either.

[whoof]

The building is a private property but I store the materials I use in my business here so it aint a work place to be honest and it wouldnt be classed as one to the councils point of view either.

My sympathies mate

I ran into similar problems trying to make Biodiesel, possible to do legally but various hurdles can be put in place so that you have to argue legally.
That costs money and "they" kmow it.
My business was van based technically but i parked it at home.
Could be that my private address would have to have its poll tax reviewed as a business.

Section 25


(2)Before there is rendered harmless under this section—(a)any article that forms part of a batch of similar articles; or

(b)any substance,

the inspector shall, if it is practicable for him to do so, take a sample thereof and give to a responsible person at the premises where the article or substance was found by him a portion of the sample marked in a manner sufficient to identify it.

(3)As soon as may be after any article or substance has been seized and rendered harmless under this section, the inspector shall prepare and sign a written report giving particulars of the circumstances in which the article or substance was seized and so dealt with by him, and shall—

(a)give a signed copy of the report to a responsible person at the premises where the article or substance was found by him; and


Did they do this ?

[pyrotechnist]

That is bad now we cannot even use cheaper alternative fuels without hassel! They did not mate they just took them away, the police where originally ok with the set up but wanted a fire officer to see the lot who just came out with the above mentioned tosh and then they got the company they had on stand by in to dispose of the chems.

[Karl Mitchell-Shead]

The building is a private property but I store the materials I use in my business here so it aint a work place to be honest and it wouldnt be classed as one to the councils point of view either.

If your business is registered at your home address and you are storing your tools / equipment / materials there then it indeed falls under HSAW.

[pyrotechnist]

But the matter still applies that they did not have the right to seize my chemicals nor did they give me the proper reasons or documentation for doing so.