14 replies to this topic

[exat808]

Right folks. After a number of PM's regarding the matter I have the following update.

I have been in discussion today with the Regulatory Contact Officer at HM Explosives Inspectorate ( the first port of call and font of all knowledge for all things firework related) and posed the scenario as follows -

If an individual lawfully possesses Cat 3 articles and takes them to a place of use where he subsequently modifies or adapts the fusing arrangements of these articles to link them in multiple or to use any other fusing arrangment other than that supplied at the point of manufacture to fire them individually or in multiple does this act of lawful fusing under MSER render the articles to be Cat 4 by any default process?

We spent the day examining many pieces of legislation and internal guidance documents and cannot find any reference that would make those re-fused Cat 3 articles fall to cat 4 by a default.

There is a precedence that any article that has never been assigned a Cat under BS7114 shall default to cat 4 but no mention of those that already categorised.

There is still an issue relating to the transport of any article that has modified in such a way as to alter the characteristics from how it was submitted for CAD but this only kicks in if you need to disassemble a shot and remove it from the place of use or if you have fused the article at a place of storage.

In all fusing operations of course competence is essential, as is compliance with MSER ACOP in respect of risk assessments and safe practices.

Hope this helps a bit.

[phildunford]

Many thanks for the research Danny...

This does seem pretty definitive, but it was not (as far as I understand) what was said on the course.

[Atom Fireworks]

On the course it was clearly explained that any tampering with the fusing of a cat 3 cake turns it instantly into cat 4 full stop.

Jay

[Arthur Brown]

On that course it was also taught that Quickmatch was a cat4 item, but as it isn't a firework (0333 - 0337) I find it hard to understand how it can be a category 4 firework.

[exat808]

On the course it was clearly explained that any tampering with the fusing of a cat 3 cake turns it instantly into cat 4 full stop.

Jay

As a training provider myself I ( although not for Cat 4 fireworks) I believe that it is important to be able to provide the appropriate legislative or documentary references to support statements made during the training.
Perhaps it would be advisable for one or more of the students on the IC course to contact the trainer and ask for such a reference. We could maybe put this issue to bed then.

[Atom Fireworks]

As a training provider myself I ( although not for Cat 4 fireworks) I believe that it is important to be able to provide the appropriate legislative or documentary references to support statements made during the training.
Perhaps it would be advisable for one or more of the students on the IC course to contact the trainer and ask for such a reference. We could maybe put this issue to bed then.

Danny i didnt mean that comment as a dig towards you mate, it was just a statement of exactly what was said on the course to back up the claims or rumours so to speak. Personally i would feel comfortable explaining to the HSE why i do not believe altering the fusing arrangements at the display site changes the articles classification from cat 3 to 4. It doesnt really apply to me any how as i deal in cat 4 so fusing is not an issue.



Jay

[exat808]

Danny i didnt mean that comment as a dig towards you mate, it was just a statement of exactly what was said on the course to back up the claims or rumours so to speak. Personally i would feel comfortable explaining to the HSE why i do not believe altering the fusing arrangements at the display site changes the articles classification from cat 3 to 4. It doesnt really apply to me any how as i deal in cat 4 so fusing is not an issue.



Jay

Hate electronic messages sometimes - too easy to read them the wrong way - I didnt take it as a dig Jay. I was trying to say that the matter could be resolved if your trainer can get us all the reference to support his statement. I get the feeling that this matter will not go away entirely until we have documentary proof one way or another.

My HSE contact and I did come up with one harmonious comment - " If you change the fuse on a Cat3 at the place of use who the bloody hell is going to come and check?" Provided that your fusing operations are safe and in line with MSER and its ACOP and you risk assessments for the fusing operation and for the display are robust enough, then there is no more to be worried about.

[phildunford]

As a training provider myself I ( although not for Cat 4 fireworks) I believe that it is important to be able to provide the appropriate legislative or documentary references to support statements made during the training.
Perhaps it would be advisable for one or more of the students on the IC course to contact the trainer and ask for such a reference. We could maybe put this issue to bed then.

Could someone who attended the course undertake to (tackfully!) do this please? It seems certain that Cat 3 does not become Cat 4 when refused.

I've invited Steve to join this forum in order that he can comment on matters concerning training, but he has not done so....

[Altus]

I raised the matter to IC the day after training and have been providing Danny with information from Steve and Chris at IC and vice versa providing Danny's comments to Steve and Chris at IC. At the moment I haven't yet received a response to Danny's last update. When I get a reply I'll be sure to update.

I know Steve from IC said he had a container landing on Sunday and still had 70 other papers to mark so I'm guessing they are all pretty busy at the moment so it might take a little while for them to review and put together a suitable response.

Edited by Altus, 13 October 2011 - 06:03 AM.

[phildunford]

Many thanks Altus.

Watch this space...

[jakew009]

Hello everyone

Jake from the course.


I spoke to Steve briefly about this during the course and I got the impression from him that basically, there may well be a loophole that means you can legally fuse cat3 on site and get away with it.


But his attitude to this sort of problem is that loopholes are no good - and rather than trying to work using loopholes, you should assume that all loopholes will be closed and instead find legal ways of doing them.

Ie. go on the course, then phone Roy up and say,

I have been on the IC course, I have this experience, I want to fire a cat3 show but I want to fuse it in this way, will you insure it? And the answer might well be yes.

And perfectly legal that way.

[Arthur Brown]

This thread was STARTED by exat808 who is well aware of our activities after a conversation with HSE (as he says) which he doesn't have to pay for as we would.

His post is as close to a statement of law and interpretation as is possible.

Roy Musk is an insurance person but not an explosives law expert, Steve from Illuminate Consult is the best available trainer for fireworks (inc cat4) BUT he isn't the HSE -Where exat808 is better connected.

[portfire]

OK, another scenario. A CAT 2/3 cake stops functioning once fired, can someone refuse the item? When I say someone, I mean a competent person with knowledge of how a firework functions.

[Richard H]

Reading the MSER ACOP, which states:

(e) there must be no repair or breakdown of fireworks other than repairs to the fusing system;

I would interpret this as saying that you may repair the fusing at or leading to the point of initiation. For example you might replace the igniter cord or electric match on the first tube in a cake. However, I think if you were to dissect a cake in half to identify and repair a failure in the ignition train - this would not be within the spirit of the code of practice and it would be 'manufacture' and so would need to take place at a licensed site.

[exat808]

OK, another scenario. A CAT 2/3 cake stops functioning once fired, can someone refuse the item? When I say someone, I mean a competent person with knowledge of how a firework functions.

You may wish to treat your partially ignited cake as a failed item and you are then into a scenario of disposal which is generally catered for at MSER Reg 6. Disposal can be by burning and by introducing flame or heat from a fuse to the pyro composition you are burning it to destruction.

Whilst I appreciate that everyone may wish to have all bases covered by posing these scenarios are we looking too deeply into this matter?. The re-ignition of misfired articles (disposal) should be covered in Risk Assessments and method statements.

Edited by exat808, 14 October 2011 - 01:42 PM.