15 replies to this topic

[Farnet]

Hey Guys,

Right, as another part of my hobbyist environment I am just learning how to reload Firearms cartridges (bullets for the layman :-) ), and a suprising turn up for the books, the only part of the reloading components that has a form of licensing is the primer, and the reason being for this is its the only component that cannot be made by hand.

My challenge by the gunshop is to make my own primer, as I said that it is a load of rubbish (I bought a load just in case).

any ideas, my thoughs is it is a sulphur based concussion (possibly a chlorate mixture?) ignition, but from there I am at a loss.

over to you experts.

Farnet

[barra69]

I have been reloading for over thirty years and I can tell you that the current requirement to show certification is stupidity itself, as is much of our Firearm legislation.

On the subject of home made primers, there are many compositions that can be readily produced, some much easier than others. As this is open forum I do not believe it is suitable to discuss these as they are primary explosives. However, simple non safety matchheads and a little crushed glass can (and has) been used in the past. Far better and safer to use commercial primers as different primers can make a huge difference to both pressure and accuracy.

[Mortartube]

Some primers are made from fulminates. Not something you want to play with.

[Farnet]

In that case can someone move this post to the member section.

A am really quite interested in the composition, if it is too dangerous then I won't attempt it, but I'd still like to know

[pyrotrev]

In that case can someone move this post to the member section.

A am really quite interested in the composition, if it is too dangerous then I won't attempt it, but I'd still like to know

Mmmm, I'm not sure how much of this should be discussed on this forum, but I will tell you a few snags and where to look!
Potassium chlorate (KClO3)and sulphur is a no-no, as well as being a death mix it's unstable and may either spontaneously go off or not work. Other KClO3 compositions are bad news for anything other than stainless barrelled weapons as the KCl produced on ignition is very corrosive.
Mercury compounds (e.g. fulminate) are also bad news as mercury produced on ignition alloys with brass (the cartridge case) and weakens it.
Modern formulations seem to rely on lead styphnate or diazodinitrophenol if you wish to be lead free and dolphin friendly, a Google search for "percussion cap composition" will reveal working formulations.
Any such mixture will be by it's very nature VERY SENSITIVE and HIGHLY EXPLOSIVE, I would seriously advise avoiding mixing any other than in a very controlled factory environment.

[Arthur Brown]

Well the early formulations are documented, but as mentioned above will cause barrel erosion or worse, putting the firearm proof at risk. The more modern formulations are available but require manufacture of HE chemicals in small quantities.

Handling primer ingredients and primer compound is something that the regular makers take a lot of care with, using remote methods of work wherever possible. Even if you find the mixture you may not get the mixing instructions which will be life critical!

Most problematic will be the attitude of your FLO if you really try to circumvent the rules.

[Farnet]

OK you convinced me...... damn, teach me for being cocky in front of the shop owner.

I must admit when I was a kid I very nearly got myself and my friends eardrum blown out by removing the ignition powder from about 50 blank .22 rounds (not telling how we did it as there may be other people reading thinking it is a good idea.... WELL...ITS NOT) and setting it off inside a shed.....

Lets just say that I got banned from my friends house for a couple of weeks (because it was my idea) and we but had problems hearing for a few days.

I agree with BARRA69 though, the reloading legislation is mad, anyone can going and buy a couple of kilos of reloading powder, whereas it's a deflagaration composition but you really could do some damage if you started playing......

[Arthur Brown]

One good reason for restricting the percussion caps is that they are easily countable! Weighing powder is difficult if you need to do better than the nearest 0.1g in a retail environment, but four decimal places of grammes is easy in a good lab. Counting singles -even in packs of several is much easier for accounting for the items.

[barra69]

I have to say that the reasoning behind the current 'showing of certification' for primers solves nothing but causes legitimate users problems. I purchase primers in batches of ten to twenty thousand and due to my location getting them delivered was not a problem. Now, I have to travel some considerable distance having forewarned the shop, sometimes by months because of the quantity I buy. If the bad guys want to get primers they are not too difficult to make, as was shown when work was done in this department by certain Government agencies in the past. It does not do a thing for keeping the public safe but as is often the case in this country its about being seen to do something, no matter how stupid. I could go on, the issue of expanding bullets is another nonsense; expanding supposedly being more dangerous than non expanding. Having been shot, I can tell you that being hit is what’s dangerous.

As for the composition of most primers; first understand the difference between primary and secondary explosives rather than just high order and low order explosives. Never use fulminates for the reasons given above. Also, if you source old .303 (usually pre-1957 if memory serves me correctly) wash your barrel thoroughly after every range session, War Department ammo was fulminate primed up to this time.

[sid101]

First of all very sorry for reviving a short time dead thread but worth a mention.

First of all primers are the only thing that are restricted but blank rounds are unrestricted in the UK, and with some careful work they can be removed from the blank cartridge and inserted into a normal casing with powder and the bullet. This amazes me sometimes, such heavy restriction on live rounds but with some tools that can be found easily can be made quickly and cheaply.

Second, the percussion caps for black powder rifles and pistols are not restricted (they are sometimes used in rockets to launch them?) which could be modified to fit?

I have never done any of these this nor will I ever attempt them. Just something to note that you would not even need to make them but rather buy in a different form.

SiD

[Arthur Brown]

Please be aware that messing, tampering or avoiding the firearms and ammunition statures and regs will bring you to the critical attention of your ELO/FLO it also is possibly beyond the remit of this forum.

[barra69]

Whilst what you say is correct Arthur, it is a rather unfortunate combination of circumstances that have led to UK law in regards to both firearms and explosives being an utter mess. I have spoken in the past to some very senior police officers who freely admit this. When those who know little about the subject are allowed to make or direct law the end result is usually a mess. Reloading is a case in point; it is legal to home reload but not to disassemble the very rounds that you have made. That means that ALL reloaders at some point have to technically break the law!
Explosives too is a mess, we now have a situation where it is 'easier' for contractors to have mechanical peckers breaking rock for weeks at a time, adding to cost, inconvenience and pollution. Why? Simply because there is less hassle than using explosives. Thirty years ago the contractor would have the drills running for a morning, clear the area for a period of time and fire a shot or two: job done.

Does this affect the primary subject of this forum? Yes, those same legislators look at our hobby with suspicion and fear.Every time someone has an incident they will tighten up legislation to the point where nothing can be done. Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions as those of us in the shooting and explosives world know only too well.

[exat808]

When those who know little about the subject

such as your good self
are allowed to make or direct law the end result is usually a mess.

Reloading is a case in point; it is legal to home reload but not to disassemble the very rounds that you have made

incorrect. please read MSER 2005 regulation 9 for the specific exemption for making and unmaking ammunition and cartridges


. That means that ALL reloaders at some point have to technically break the law!

incorrect again - not doing too well are we!

Explosives too is a mess, we now have a situation where it is 'easier' for contractors to have mechanical peckers breaking rock for weeks at a time, adding to cost, inconvenience and pollution. Why? Simply because there is less hassle than using explosives. Thirty years ago the contractor would have the drills running for a morning, clear the area for a period of time and fire a shot or two: job done.

Does this affect the primary subject of this forum? Yes, those same legislators look at our hobby with suspicion and fear.

I am a legislator/enforcer. Please ask the UKPS staff how many times I have expressed suspicions and have been fearful of the hobby


Every time someone has an incident
they will tighten up legislation

perhaps acquaint yourself with the goals and aspirations of UKPS and speak to UKPS staff about the work that is being done with the persons you refer to as "they"


to the point where nothing can be done. Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions as those of us in the shooting and explosives world know only too well.

[exat808]

First of all primers are the only thing that are restricted

primed cases are also restricted


but blank rounds are unrestricted in the UK

only up to 1" diameter
, and with some careful work they can be removed from the blank cartridge and inserted into a normal casing with powder and the bullet.

This amazes me sometimes, such heavy restriction on live rounds

its been with us ( with amendments) since 1968. I deal with the shooting community daily. Very seldom do I hear discontent about the restrictions on live rounds

but with some tools that can be found easily can be made quickly and cheaply.

Second, the percussion caps for black powder rifles and pistols are not restricted

correct. the restriction is only for "primers for metallic cased cartridges" - it also doesnt capture top hat style primers for shotgun cartridges

(they are sometimes used in rockets to launch them?) which could be modified to fit?

I have never done any of these this nor will I ever attempt


correct. making a primer would be a licensable act under MSER. The sale or purchase of primers is restricted by the VCRA 2006 -


http://www.legislati...6/38/section/35


but rather buy in a different form.

SiD

[barra69]

Well 808, I apologise for my erroneous input although what I said certainly used to be the case. As for being a legislator, well done and I am sure that we all look forward to the results of your labour. However you will understand of course why those of us in the shooting fraternity who suffered from knee jerk reactions on two occasions and who feel bitterly let down by those we trusted to look after our interest feel so disillusioned by the whole process.

Every time I return to the UK I feel that the Government and those that advise, trust us less and less. It is ironic that whilst executing HM Governments policies I can carry side arms amongst the general populace, however I cannot be trusted with the same responsibility as a civilian.

May I also say that I, along with a goodly percentage of the populace refer to those involved with this process as 'they' for a very good reason: for the most part 'they' remain as faceless individuals with whom the population have difficulty in communicating effectively with. I accept and understand that your position may be different however, ask the average sporting shot when he/she got a chance to speak to a chief constable regarding their sport?