11 replies to this topic

[AdmiralDonSnider]

Still looking for a source in the EU, UK or European mainland selling arsenic trioxide. I know that it´s an unobtanium, for obvious reasons; the most promising source - though - would be the glass industry. I´ve in person seen a storage filled with bags of copper, cobalt and arsenic salts in Murano; (so don´t tell me it´s impossible .) 10 metric tons are all that have been offered to me so far.

If anyone knows a source (drum qty. or less), please share - offering a financial reward. This is not a joke - I know about the hazard and will take all necessary precautions. Intended use is the production of copper acetoarsenite (paris green).

Thanks!

[MDH]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you believe Arsenic will do that other elements won't? What specific chemical reactions occur with arsenic in a flame envelope?

[crystal palace fireworks]

Still looking for a source in the EU, UK or European mainland selling arsenic trioxide. I know that it´s an unobtanium, for obvious reasons; the most promising source - though - would be the glass industry. I´ve in person seen a storage filled with bags of copper, cobalt and arsenic salts in Murano; (so don´t tell me it´s impossible .) 10 metric tons are all that have been offered to me so far.

If anyone knows a source (drum qty. or less), please share - offering a financial reward. This is not a joke - I know about the hazard and will take all necessary precautions. Intended use is the production of copper acetoarsenite (paris green).

Thanks!

financial reward,...how much you paying?

[AdmiralDonSnider]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is it that you believe Arsenic will do that other elements won't? What specific chemical reactions occur with arsenic in a flame envelope?

A technician in contrast to a scientist is a believer. His or other´s "experience" will tell him that paris green in chlorate compositions is able to produce blues as good or better than the finest AP colors, showing large flame size, easy ignition, less compatibility issues, lower prize, high wind resistance etc. The reasons will remain unclear though. I´m a technician, so I can only cite others and refer to hypothesis saying that the arsenic mediates the chlorine transfer to the copper. At least, it DOES have properties other copper salts don´t have, as PG blues are simply not reproducible with more modern compounds such as the oxide, oxychloride, carbonate or benzoate.

The way you were asking - though - made me assume that you are either sceptical about the latter statement or already know the answer to your question.

financial reward,...how much you paying?

50 Eur for any source having successfully sold me anything other that gram qtys. Also donated to the society if chosen to do so.

Edited by AdmiralDonSnider, 13 December 2011 - 08:43 PM.

[MDH]

You are pretty accurate in your assessment.

I don't see arsenic as the holy grail of elements (Yet, anyway) for a few reasons.

There has been no documented case of a pyrotechnician using arsenic oxides or realgar to intensify colors, both of which would presumably intensify colors without a chlorine donor (Think, barium nitrate, potassium perchlorate and realgar).

My other question is - how does Arsenic transmit chlorine to copper within a flame envelope? If it forms chlorides at a high temperatures that prevent chlorate from being reduced to chloride, wouldn't another element which behaves similarly suffice?

Edited by MDH, 13 December 2011 - 10:17 PM.

[Mumbles]

The real fact that some miss is that using paris green in a chlorate comp does not require external chlorine donors to produce a nice blue, where as some other salts do. Argue all you want, but barring the use of something like sulfur in the formula, most chlorate colors will benefit from some additional external chlorine donor. PG blues are good on their own, and are only marginally improved by the addition of something else. PG blues seem to derive some of their mythical properties from the fact that they seem to make the blue colorant on it's own.

There is some postulation that arsenic does not transfer chlorine to the copper atom, rather a copper acetate is the blue emitter that is produced. This is supported, at least in part, by the fact that copper arsenite makes a relatively poor blue color when used in analogous formulas. Some have reported noticing an odor of acetic acid down wind of a blue lance set piece. Why you'd stand down wind of an arsenic containing composition is beyond me. Copper acetate on it's own is undesirable as it is hygroscopic and water soluble. It would be interesting seeing how some other ancillary ligands on copper acetate to make it insoluble might work.

As far as the lack of success of realgar, it's possible that the chlorine cannot replace sulfur in a flame with ease. The arsenic sulfur interaction is significantly more favorably than that of arsenic and chlorine. This would in general hamper the action of chlorine transfer. There is also some other postulation generated from the major blue emission lines of arsenic. This would in a sense have some synergistic effects on blue only and no other colors, or would at least be largely over powered.

I think most plausibly at least some of the lore of paris green originates from the fact that it has some fuel value of it's own. This allows one to include a larger percentage of the copper containing component. While this does not allow you to get a larger percentage of copper as a whole into the composition, there seems to be some benefit to having the metal atom of choice directly involved in the reaction vs. just being a subsequently excited secondary component. This can be seen in the somewhat recent surge in metal fueled stars relying upon strontium and barium nitrates or carbonates as primary or at least partial oxidizers. Also over the initial excitement of copper benzoate.

[sid101]

Just had a look at my fisher scientific catalogue, you dont want to know the price :L

[crystal palace fireworks]

Still looking for a source in the EU, UK or European mainland selling arsenic trioxide. I know that it´s an unobtanium, for obvious reasons; the most promising source - though - would be the glass industry. I´ve in person seen a storage filled with bags of copper, cobalt and arsenic salts in Murano; (so don´t tell me it´s impossible .) 10 metric tons are all that have been offered to me so far.

If anyone knows a source (drum qty. or less), please share - offering a financial reward. This is not a joke - I know about the hazard and will take all necessary precautions. Intended use is the production of copper acetoarsenite (paris green).

Thanks!

Don`t want to put a downer on things, but have you looked at any legislation involving; "The Poisons List Order 1982", "The Poisons Act 1972", "The Poisons Rules 1982", me thinks you may have to be become a Registered Pharmacist to sell or perhaps even buy the stuff for production/proccessing reasons.

[whoof]

the most promising source - though - would be the glass industry.

I have a recollection that it was / is used in pottery glazes as well.

[pyrotrev]

My guess would be that the arsenic bit reacts with the decomposition products of the potassium chlorate (KCl?) liberating chlorine in the flame to give the good blue colour. If this is so, there might be other compounds that have the same function.... FYI the best price I can find from lab suppliers of arsenic (III) oxide is about £40 for 250g - but it'll mean signing the poisons register.

[AdmiralDonSnider]

Thanks. I´m not searching for the lab grade though. The tech. quality I want comes in 50kg barrels.