12 replies to this topic

[CCH Concepts]

Hello all

Its been a while since ive been on here, house shares kinda stopped the hobby for me.

But back to my reason for posting, i have been set the challenge of creating a smoke screen. The task has been to link this too a smoke machine, but after trying several machines, the smoke produced simply isnt filling the room quick enough.

So i have been asked to come up with a chemical option. The first option i tried was hydrogen peroxide and potassium permanganate. I am awear of the saftey issues with these chemicals and took appropriate precautions, What was good about this reaction was the only gaseous products produced were H2O and O this made a very large, dense and fast "smoke screen" but obviously being water this quickly dissipated and there is concerns over water damage.

No im looking for others options. I have been looking at Titanium TetraOxide and water. from what i have read this produces a very good dense and lasting smoke screen of TiO2 but also HCl.

So to my question, Would it be practical to pass this gasious product through a salt such as Sodium bicarbonate to remove the HCl leave a non-dangerous TiO2 smoke?

If this is practical can i buy TiClO4? if not can i synthesis it?

If this is not a practical solution are there any other suggestions?

The delivery system in mind, would separate solid by products from the outside environment with only the gaseous products leaving the device.

[whoof]

Have you considered dry ice at high level, istr seeing a waterfall effect somewhere which used it ?

[whoof]

Pretty much what i was thinking.

Basically a giant fog machine.
Something along the lines of a wood frame with cheap plastic liner for a water trough
with a bit of guttering above on a hinge holding dry ice for a quick fog followed by standard machine for backup.

[CCH Concepts]

I have discussed TiClO4 and Tin tetrachloride with my brother (who asked me to design the system).

And we have decided the same thing, just build a big arse smoke machine using the glycol smoke fluids.

I'm thinking copper pipe wrapped in nichrome wire should provide enough heat with a high volume pump.

[Mortartube]

If you only need it for the one use, hire a pea souper or one of the very big ones. No safety issues other than known ones and if it all goes wrong owing to a fault, it's down to the hirer and their insurance.

[CCH Concepts]

This will be a standing part of a security system to make theft more difficult.

Alarms sounds, lights go out and property fills with smoke.

So it will have to be reusable, I'm toying with the idea, of replacing the water in a water fire extingisher, pressurising it again and attaching a coil of copper with a nichrome wire wrapped around the pipe to heat.

Idea being if I can have a long enough hot enough pipe to pass the glycol through it will be a very high flow smoke machine.

[CCH Concepts]

how about a powder fire extinguisher filled with TiO2 thats basically what TiClO4 is doing, as its not vaporised as its boiling point is 2972 Celsius, its just airisolizing the TiO2 by product.

[martyn]

Sounds like you are trying to make a smokecloak. They use glycol solution.

[portfire]

I seem to remember a piece in Tommorrows World years ago with a system like you're after. Only problem is, if the miscreant falls, breaks a leg, YOU'RE liable!!

Edited by portfire, 19 September 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[Creepin_pyro]

We have a smokecloak at work, I always make sure I'm around when they test/refill it as it's great fun!

RE liability, I believe the systems come with appropriate insurance:

"The potential liability claim was, of course, a real issue; this was solved by an insurance policy to specifically cover this risk. The cover is still provided today free of charge with every Smokecloak and it is interesting to note that after all these years, there has never been a claim.
The police and fire services also had misgivings about the concept; this has been addressed by approved signage provided with every system and both services being advised about every installation."

Not sure how this would work with a homebrew one...

[Arthur Brown]

Search the Smokecloak system it is a professional solution to the problem.
Beware! you have the chemistry wrong in places. TiCl4 reacts with water to produce TiO2 and HCl This is a violent reaction industrially regarded as explosive. Also the products are a gas that destroys most things and a solid that contaminates everything. It would be like an acid cloud raining grit. and the protected product would be destroyed.
Peroxide and Permanganate will produce high temperature steam which may damage the protected goods, the trouble is that it is again a violent reaction once used (in V2 rockets) for driving high power turbines. Plus of course Peroxide is now very hard to obtain in high concentrations due to its misuse by terrorists and few peaceful uses at high strength -concentration is possible but prone to explosion.

[whoof]

Apart from the possibility of irritation, does using glcol not cause a clean up problem ?
House with soft furnisings as opposed to commercial properties ?

edit

cch you have a pm

Edited by whoof, 19 September 2012 - 10:29 PM.