25 replies to this topic

[Hary12]

Hi. im new here, and i must say this is a great forum!
well i just wanted to know if anyone here would know how to make a small firecracker (tom thumb size) with easy ingreadiants.
i live in australia, so i cant get chemicals like kno3 and sulfur, so if anyone knows a way to make loud little firecrackers, i would greatly appreciate it.
also, is there anyway to make small rockets?
like using sparklers or match heads? or if anyone can lead me in the right direction to buying kno3 in sydney.
thanks, (sorry im asking so much, im just really into this pyro stuff)

[Stuart]

It's never a good way to introduce your self by saying that you want to know how to make something out of easy to obtain chemicals. You best bet would be to get some Black Powder or KNO3 and make your own. I know that this can be bought in Australia although if you cant find it, then you should talk to some of the Australian members on the forum.

My bangers are about the size of your index finger and make a hell of a bang. Look at my site if you want the tutorial, they will be in the How to Make Maroons section.

Stuart

[alany]

Supplies in Australia has actually been discussed here a few times before, have a search for the details, briefly:

For Potassium Nitrate your best bet is a large nursery or farming supplier. It is insanely cheap when purchased in 25 kg bags. Sulfur should be available from the chemist in small quantities (as flowers of sulfur). Dusting sulfur is generally quite impure, but easily obtained from the garden section of most hardware stores and works if you have nothing else. Sulfur flour from a rubber company is the best stuff if you can get it.

Before you make exploding or flying fireworks I'd suggest you perfect BP meal and make blackmatch or chinese fuse from it. A delay device is probably the most fundametal requirement for any project, the old sparkler makes a horrible fuse and I strongly discourage you from trying to use it. Even blackmatch is not a good idea for salutes or elsewhere safety is a concern but home-made chinese fuse can be even more unpredicatable if made poorly. Blackmatch is also easier to make.

When I was in highschool I spent hours collecting match head powder. I actually achieved quite a lot with it alone, twisting some up in tissue paper to form chinese fuse, and using raw match heads in small salutes.

I eventually got food grade KNO3 from a store in China Town and never looked back, the scale and precision of devices you can make once you have even basic greenmix is vastly improved. I managed to achieve quite serviceable rockets and fountians with greenmix alone.

[Hary12]

thanks guys.
sorry for the crappy intro
ill try to be a bit more considerate from now on.
for now ill just make some matchhead crackers (when i learn how)
then ill get some kno3 and move on from there.

[alany]

My bangers are about the size of your index finger and make a hell of a bang. Look at my site if you want the tutorial, they will be in the How to Make Maroons section.

Fortunately danmantdr is unlikely to find Sodium Chlorate weedkiller here. If he, or anyone else, followed the instructions on your site they could very well end up dead! Seriously mate, stop fooling with that chlorate BP, you will have an accident sooner or later.

[Rhodri]

Hi Danmantdr

Firstly, 'walk before you run'.

Mentioning that you want to make 'fire crackers', and being a novice, will not generate healthy replies from learned members.

Please don't tell me that you're attempting to use 'match heads' to make fire crackers? This is a recipie for disaster.

Please SLOW down and read some posts on this forum first. There's a wealth of information on this site.

As for chlorate BP.....hmmmmmm - you know our feelings about this.

[Stuart]

Fortunately danmantdr is unlikely to find Sodium Chlorate weedkiller here.  If he, or anyone else, followed the instructions on your site they could very well end up dead!  Seriously mate, stop fooling with that chlorate BP, you will have an accident sooner or later.

I can understand people concerned about using Chlorate BP however I am confident with its use. I have preformed test with it to see how sensitive it is and although this doesnt mean that nothing will go wrong, I have found that low quality is just as good for the purpose it is intended for and that is not as sensitive as people make it out to be. I dont produce high quality CBP as it doesnt need to be high quality. If I was to use it in a shell however, I would make a seperate bag for it to into to avoid contamintion.

The instructions on my site are a guide and not as much of

This is definitive how to

If anybody followed the instructons on my site or yours or anybody else's, they could well end up dead as well regardless if they are making CBP or not.

I understand your concern however I feel that I am at a level where I can handle it relitivly safely

I might add that I do say other explosives can be used however CBP is the explosive of my choice

Stuart

Edited by Stuart, 16 February 2004 - 09:21 AM.

[Hary12]

ok, im not going to make this chlorate black powder, iv seen how unstable this is.
so im going to start slow as rhodri said.
but i dont know where to start?
can anyone help?
thanks

[BigG]

mean that nothing will go wrong, I have found that low quality is just as good for the purpose it is intended for and that is not as sensitive as people make it out to be.

Stuart

Stuart, I do not generally comment on other people sites (except maybe Passfire, which is exceptionally high quality), because I think it is outside the scope of this forum to give grades. However – a sentence like “chlorate is not sensitive as people make it out to be” is a very unfounded statement. There are more then a three dozen researches showing the high sensitivity of chlorate. I can honestly tell you – when you have your first accident – it’s already too late. Never become cocky with energetic material. Never.

Stay green.

[Stuart]

The statment is not unfounded though, I have tested CBP. I can see that this could very easly lead to an argument and I dont want to fall out with your or anybody else. Therefore I suggest that we return to the topic as I will not be able to change your opinion neither I dout you will be able to change mine.

I would like to say that I dont make vast quantities of CBP, I havent made any months and that I am not cocky with energetic materials. I know the risks and have chosen to take them as has everyone else who makes explosives. Neither do I recommend that people start off with CBP

danmantdr, I think the first step would be to do some reading on the subject e.g. risks, properties etc and then get some KNO3 and make some Black Powder. It does not have to be of high quality, you just need to know what it burns like and then move on to improving it and learning the factors that determin good BP.

Stuart

Edited by Stuart, 16 February 2004 - 09:44 AM.

[RegimentalPyro]

thanks guys.
sorry for the crappy intro 
ill try to be a bit more considerate from now on.
for now ill just make some matchhead crackers (when i learn how)
then ill get some kno3 and move on from there.

OK danman, here's my hints on getting started.

There is a wealth of information on this site. Unless it is correctly managed it becomes swamped by a load of useless info. That's why we like people who search the site properly and post sensibly.

There is an order you should be trying things. The full info is on this site somewhere so please do use the search option. Hint - I made the original post so a search for all posts made by me *should* bring it up.

There are bunch of useful books to read. Again the info is contained on this site somewhere [That search facility is really looking useful isn't it!] They are not cheap so if strapped for cash get down to your local library. If they haven't got any then a standard interlibrary loan form will get you the literature for free...

Always remember - Caution,Caution,Caution at all times. Asking for safety hints on this forum BEFORE you try something will always earn you big respect. We welcome beginners who want to learn SAFELY.

Finding a supplier for chemicals can be hard, but ultimatly can be a lot of fun. I found Ebay a lot of use when getting started, but you may find a source that is better/cheaper/faster etc.

Hope this helps.....

[italteen3]

Hello danmantdr and welcome to the forums. I am new to pyrotechnics also. I started out with large "firecrackers" too. I was making flash and all that nasty stuff but finally stopped for a while.

I would recomend against all of that as a beginner. I was making the safest flash to probably handle but was not using any protection whatsoever. No respirator, gloves, cotton clothing, etc. Some powders that you wish to work with tend to float and hang in the air like dust with the slightest breeze.

Do yourself and possibly others a favor and pickup up some literature like RegimentalPyro said. If you want a recomendation for literature I would recomend Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics by Tom Peregrin. You can purchase it from www.skylighter.com. It is $50 without shipping but you will learn what you need to, the in's and out's, what to and not to do. I would suggest starting off with something that might burn a little or leave a little minor burn on your skin than kill you if an accident were to happen.

I havent had an accident yet but I am building a lab around $1000, just to build it, for my projects in which many precautions will be taken, instead of using my shed.

You will find that colors can also be very amusing, rewarding, and a nice challenge. Plus the risks can also be much less.

Be safe and have fun man!

[BurlHorse]

Danmantdr,

Most everything I have read so far in this thread has been good information to get you started. Mastering BP is indeed the basis for most fireworks, just different combinations thereof.

It may take you awhile, but start at the beginning, and read all the posts, yes I know there are alot of them, but if you are hungry, you will do it. As stated the search function can be helpful when you don't have the time to just browse around at your leisure.

Your biggest hurdle, In my humble opinion is sifting information obtained from books, the net forums, the net as a whole, etc, and deciding if it's real "information" or an article written by a 12 year old who, by devine intervention, did'nt lose an appendage or limb from an anarchist's cookbook "Deathmix". If you have the slightest doubt as to the validity of a formula, ASK someone before trying it. Formulas vary, Opinions vary, Methods vary, Chemical Purities Vary, Proportions vary, The humidity/temperature will vary, but most of all your own approach to different Pyro endevours will Vary. I purposely used all those "Vary" words, to impress upon you that variables (and controlling them) are the key to manufacturing reproducible formulas, or devices. So your being a self proclaimed novice, ( No harm there, we all started somewhere ) the logical approach would be stick with endevours that involve as few variables as possible so you can learn at a pace ensuring safety of life, limb, property etc.

How to start eliminating variables, well, lets start off easy, weight/proportions.

Weights) You need an accurate scale, since you will be starting with SMALL batch sizes, an electronic kitchen scale, Salton makes a nice one, About 25.00 USD that will weigh in lbs, ounces and fractions thereof, Kilograms, Grams, down to a tenth of a gram. It may seem a dear investment, but it is one of the easiest ways to gain control of one of our variables. Learn to use it, dixie cups and water is all it takes to get comfortable with it. Weigh everything in sight, and note anything note worthy to that particular scale. (For instance, mine automatically turns itself off after a little under a minute, hence I have to write down what the last measure was, re-tare and add whatever I didn't have ready to be weighed, I think you get the point.)

Proportions) most pyro devices need the compositions in them, to be measured in increments. While a handy-dandy aluminum or wooden kitchen spoon set would be a great investment, for a given project, usually the spoons won't fit the device and you end up having to use some accessory item ( Half Folded Paper ) to get the comp where it's supposed to go........, darn, spilled half that increment on the table...)

Tooling) Well now, what great time to start tooling for increments geared for any particular device. Spent 45 caliber shells (Brass Casings) all the way down to spent .22 shells, hot glued to an appropriate handle make great NON-SPARKING increment measuring tools to keep your increments equal and the results repeatable. Other materials can be used to make measures/powder scoops, let your imagination fly safely, but the whole idea is to be consistent and reduce or eliminate a couple of those ever dreaded variables.

As I spoke of repeatability/consistency, get a big five subject notebook/binder, record everything you do, when you finally "Perfect" whatever you are working on, finalize it by writing the formula or method in red pen and you will know which entry was the final and best one (That's my method, you can use any color you want, just so the final ( The best you can do) is a different color from all your notes on that project.)

I can't tell you how many times (Somewhere way back when) I had to ask my self, "Darn, how did I do that last one, it was great!?".....and had to start over because when I tried something else, if it did not perform as well as or any better than the preceding entry, If I came back to my notes months later, chronological notes would have me making the inferior formula....(thats when a high-lighter comes in handy if don't want to re-write the final (Or best formula). That's also why simple chronological notes are not fool proof. Hey, look, another variable eliminated through a simple to adopt practice!

There's alot more, but you have a starting point now.....

Finally for now, but in hind site....should have been first, Safety You need the following items to be handy in your shop.......Latex gloves, (keeps your hands clean as many pyro comps employ poisonous chemicals ( Getting Barium or antimony sick really really sucks. ) Thick welders gloves if you plan to grind chemicals in a mortar with a pestle, a chemical rated/1 micron filtering respirator, goggles at least but a face shield is best. Wear a 100% cotton Ball cap and always wear long sleeve 100% cotton shirt/clothes - cotton will catch fire, but it won't melt onto your skin like rayon, nylon polyesters etc. Cotton also reduces friction induced static, whereas all the synthetics invite it, Ever see a cotton dress cling to a woman from static? Won't happen. A Can of Static Guard if your working in a low humidity environment, just spray your sleeves and the bench, works wonders!

I keep a drywall bucket of fresh water in the corner of my workshop just in case. It's not alot of water to put out a fire, but should the need arise, dousing your hand, arm, or just dumping it over your head will be enough to give you a good fighting chance if you, god forbid, have a fire and in the process catch yourself aflame, it will cool the burn quickly and hopefully put you out. If the fire is magnesium based, water is a no-no, it wont help, so a small home dry-chemical fire extiguisher is also a great investment. I haven't found much of anything that will put out Magnesium except a hole and sand, dump it and contain (bury) it. It will still burn........beware, Nitrates with Magnesium while used in many formulas, are prone to self ignition because the Nitrates are so reactive with the Magnesium, read the forums, there has been some commentary on this.! Keep your work area clean, close your container of comp before ramming, better to have a drift fly out of your welders gloved hand and the contents of just the casing go up, instead of having the whole uncovered batch on the bench go up with it.

Don't mean to sound dramatic, just practical practices for a novice. I Haven't even scratched the surface, but I hope you will find this info to be of some use. I will post more for you in the near future, but for now, these suggestions/practices, In my humble opinion are where you should start. If your serious about getting into Pyro, matcheads really have no great uses for reports or otherwise, though I do remember using them as small "Stars" in inserts, very early in my pyro fascination, still they were not very notable.......

Reports have their proper place in pyro, but thats not all there is, the artistry is where you will find the most satisfaction, boomers are fun but they get pretty boring.....IMHO

Welcome aboard, Stay Green,

Bear

[Stuart]

Dont be affraid that you will do something wrong after read that, there is a lot there. Most of it can be symmarised up into common sence. By the time you get onto the dangerous stuff you will know all of the saftey proccedures from making BP and the sort. A completely random bit of information but all parts are given in weight, not volume unless stated. Also, there are cheap 0.1g scales going on eBay for UK people for about ?15. Bought some today . See the lab equipment section in the Business, Office and Industial category.

Stuart

Edited by Stuart, 16 February 2004 - 06:03 PM.

[BurlHorse]

Dont be affraid that you will do something wrong after read that, there is a lot there. Most of it can be symmarised up into common sence.  By the time you get onto the dangerous stuff you will know all of the saftey proccedures from making BP and the sort. A completely random bit of information but all parts are given in weight, not volume unless stated. Also, there are cheap 0.1g scales going on eBay for UK people for about ?15. Bought some today . See the lab equipment section in the Business, Office and Industial category.

Stuart

Stuart,

I think he, who using matchheads, asking for help, (and I applaude him for doing so...)as a novice should be afraid to do something wrong, VERY afraid. That fear will keep him in check and will blossom into a healthy respect as we all should have working with energetic materials. Safety is a relative term in pyro, I.E; it's only subjective opinions as to what is safe and what is not, your opining that Sodium Chlorate is relatively safe is a perfect example. Perhaps the impure form you elude to makes it "safe" for you, good for you, however......... Just thought I'd pass this on to you.......you know, FYI


INTRODUCTION: Sodium chlorate is a non-selective herbicide. It is considered phytotoxic to all green plant parts. It can also kill through root absorption.
FORMULATION: Sodium chlorate comes in dust, spray and granule formulations. There is a risk of fire and explosion in dry mixtures with other substances, especially organic materials, i.e. other herbicides, sulphur, powdered metals, strong acids, etc. (1). Marketed formulations contain a fire depressant (242). (Common Table Salt I believe......Bear)

TOXICOLOGICAL EFFECTS

Acute Toxicity:A single dose of 5-10 g/person of sodium chlorate can prove to be fatal in adults, as can a single dose of 2 g/child in small children. Another source reported that a dose of 15 to 30 g/person may be fatal to humans (207). Irritation of the skin, eyes, and mucous membranes has been noted (1, 242, 205). Symptoms of oral ingestion of sodium chlorate include abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, pallor, blueness, shortness of breath, unconsciousness and collapse (205, 348). Chronic Toxicity: Chronic exposure may render lack of appetite and weight loss, as well as all those symptoms listed under acute exposure to sodium chlorate. A prolonged chronic exposure to inhalation of sodium chlorate may cause mucous membrane irritation (348).
Reproductive Effects: No information was available.
Teratogenic Effects: No information was available.
Mutagenic Effects: No information was available.
Organ Toxicity: Sodium chlorate may affect blood cells and damage kidneys. Acute exposure to the compound may damage the liver. The kidney tubules may be severely damaged without producing detectable methemoglobinemia. Repeated ingestion of small doses may cause anorexia and weight loss (348).


PHYSICAL PROPERTIES AND GUIDELINES

Physical Properties:

Appearance: colorless powder
Chemical Name: Sodium chlorate
CAS Number: 7775-09-9 (1)
Molecular Weight: 106.4
Water Solubility: In water at 0 degrees C, 79 g/100 ml; at 100 degrees C, 230 g/100 ml (1, 242, 205)
Solubility in Other Solvents: In 90% alcohol, 1.6 g/100 g (1); soluble in ethanol and glycerol (242)
Melting Point: 248 degrees C (1, 242, 205); 478-502 degrees F (348)
Vapor Pressure: Zero (1)
Partition Coefficient: Not Available
Adsorption Coefficient: Not Available


Anyone working with sodium chlorate crystal or solution must be thoroughly instructed in the precautions necessary for its safe handling, storage and use. Training should include instruction in the prevention of fire hazards, recommended safety equipment and first aid procedures.

Under normal conditions and when kept away from combustible materials, sodium chlorate presents little or no fire hazard. However, sodium chlorate can be dangerously flammable, even explosive, when in contact with combustible materials, acids, or reducing agents.

Good housekeeping and safety go hand-in-hand. Do not allow sodium chlorate to accumulate anywhere. Promptly clean up any spills. Keep all sodium chlorate areas tidy and free of debris.

Avoid the presence of any combustible materials in sodium chlorate areas. Such materials include:

cloth, solvents, paint, waxes, paper, grease, soils, leather, sawdust, wood,

When impregnated with sodium chlorate solution and allowed to dry, these materials can be easily ignited by a flame, a spark, a drop of strong acid, friction or heat.

Wood and leather deserve special mention. If sodium chlorate solution spills on these materials, it sinks below the surface, where it is thoroughly absorbed and can't be washed out.

Other materials to avoid include acids, ammonium compounds, phosphorus, powdered metals, sulfur compounds and reducing agents. Do NOT use petroleum based lubricants in any equipment which may contact sodium chlorate.

Because even the smallest spark or heat source can ignite combustible material contaminated with sodium chlorate, there should be no smoking or open flames in any sodium chlorate area.

Personal Protection

All workers in a sodium chlorate area should wear clothing that can be easily washed, safety glasses with side shields or chemical safety goggles, rubber gloves and rubber boots. Whenever there is a high risk of potential exposure, such as during unloading operations, workers should also wear a face shield and either aprons or rain suits (jacket and pants) made of rubber or polyvinyl chloride (PVC). See Figure 1.

IMPORTANT: Do not wear anything made of leather, including shoes, gloves, belts or a watch band.

A good practice is for workers to have distinctive clothing reserved exclusively for the sodium chlorate work area. All work clothing should be kept separate from street clothes. Clean clothes should be worn each shift and washed immediately afterwards. Workers should shower with soap and water after each shift.

Whenever clothing is contaminated with sodium chlorate solution, it should be removed immediately and thoroughly rinsed to remove the chemical. Dried fabric contaminated with chlorate is dangerously flammable.

Emergency Procedures

Fire Fighting

A sodium chlorate fire burns rapidly and intensely. Never attempt to smother it with a blanket or a chemical fire extinguisher. Because sodium chlorate provides its own source of oxygen, such attempts will be completely ineffective. Water is the only effective means of controlling a sodium chlorate fire. However, water must be applied immediately or the fire will quickly grow out of control.

If clothing catches fire, immediately drench with water. Safety showers or water-filled jump tanks should be located at strategic points throughout the sodium chlorate area.


Really Safe stuff from a your Subjective, point of view, from my Objective point of view, and the data presented above, I am sure he now has enough knowledge to know it's not safe for him and maybe even you for that matter, read my tag line at the bottom of my post.......... Bottom line, the stuff is a potent poison, sensitive to shock and friction in the form you are making it and thats the same thing I addressed in my post as to sifting through all the info available and it's validity.

Whilst it may all be S-U-M-M-A-R-I-Z-E-D as common sense to you, The guy asked for help because his knowledge at this point is about zero, except that matchheads burn and he wants to no why/more. I therefore say it's common knowledge that you have to possess knowledge of a subject before you can develop anything deemed common sense on it, which he self admittedly does not.

I have no argument with you, There is'nt one, the facts are plain as day. As was indicated in an earler post, I'll defer as you are unlikely to change my opinion nor me yours.

Thankfully as was also stated in an earlier post he'll not likely be able to get ahold of it, as you could start wheels turning in this novices head...... Now then, Back to Black Powder and Safety......

Regards,

Bear