14 replies to this topic

[pyrodude]

Hiya,
I just made a white fire composition and it burnt very fast indeed. Too fast. This is meant to be a slow burning flash comp but i had about 200g of it and it burnt in an open top cardboard tube in about 2 1/2 seconds. Please do you know how i can slow this down to give a burning time of about 5-10 seconds and does snyone know what the fumes are which are given off as they have had me coughing for the past hour. The comp is Potassium Nitrate = 50%, Sulphur = 30%, Aluminium powder = 20%.
Cheers Kyle Spooner

[dfk]

Generally more fuels or less oxidizer will slow a comp down.

Take a look at your MSDS for the chemicals you deal with before you deal with them. This way when you get sick from not wearing the appropriate safety gear you know why.

These excerpts are from the MSDS sheets for all the chemicals you listed. Granted these are referring to inhaling the unburnt powder, you can get the same effect from the smoke.

ALUMINUM:
Inhalation:
Causes irritation to the respiratory tract. Symptoms may include coughing, shortness of breath.

SULFUR:
Inhalation:
Nuisance dust. May cause coughing, sneezing or labored breathing if large amounts are inhaled.

POTASSIUM NITRATE:
Inhalation:
Causes irritation to the respiratory tract. Symptoms may include coughing, shortness of breath.

*In the thread labeled *Dust Masks* in the UK Pyrotechnics forum there is a link at the bottom to find MSDS sheets for most Chemicals
Hope this answers your questions

Marcus

[The_Djinn]

Pyrodude,

Notice that everything you used in the comp has MDS data referring to the respiratory tract and coughing. You probably only had a mild dose but I guess the discomfort you have suffered will make you think twice about putting the respirator on or staying well away from comps being tested... like upwind.

I know it sounds so repetitive, but guy's... safety first for your own sake and those around you.

Mark

[PanMaster]

you are forgetting the important ones, those ones don't cause the coughing.
SULPHUR DIOXIDE (g), an irritant of the lungs, though nowhere near as nasty as sulphur trioxide, gives the smell anyway
HYDROGEN SULPHIDE (g) gives a nasty smell, poisonous, creates sulphurous acid
POTASSIUM SULPHIDE (g), ???
ALUMINIUM SULPHIDE (g) ???
ALUMINIUM OXIDE (G) ???

[pyrodude]

Yeah i should have stayed upwind but the smoke was every where even when i went inside for a bit to find some more matches i came outside 10 mins later and the smoke was still in the air and still caused me to cough it gave me a painful feeling in my throat and made me cough terribly. Kinda annoying but ive stopped now (thank god) ill test it when the wind is blowing in one direction next time and stay a bit further away from it. Cheers mark and marcus for the info.
Cheers Kyle Spooner

EDIT: The smoke was thick and black. Is this normal for these chemicals???

Edited by pyrodude, 26 February 2004 - 07:26 PM.

[Mortartube]

I certainly wouldn't expect thick BLACK smoke from this composition. White or Grey maybe. There's an awful lot of sulphur in that composition.

[pyrodude]

It was definately BLACK smoke and not any other colour and it was terrible smelling also.
Cheers Kyle

[BurlHorse]

I would be redundant to repeat what anyone said, but they are all correct. Since you were proximal enough to have suffered the effects of the smoke, you were too close anyway for that comp. I feel lucky we are talking to you. Examining the basics of the comp, you were using a 50/50 fuel oxidizer ratio, thats why there was so much smoke, incomplete decomposition at that ratio.

Not knowing what aluminum you were using, I can't really make an assessment, but you were very very close to something BAD, had the sulfer been at 20 and the AL at 30%, 200 grams would have very possibly gone high order. You said in an open top cardboard tube, was it loose or rammed/compacted at all, because unconfined I think your fountain might have turned into a salute. The mere fact that the reaction consumed nearly half a pound of comp in 2.5 seconds tells me your walking that thin line.........Please be careful

Additionally, Nitrates and Aluminums are not particularly fond of each other, so the sulfer saved you by acting as somewhat of a buffer, consider the Hacking cough a blessing in disguise. Where did you find this formula, or did you devise it?

Regards, Stay Green,

Bear

[pyrodude]

The formula is actually posted on this forum on the same section as this topic is. I am using micro fine al powder bought off ebay.co.uk its meant for woodturnings?
Cheers Kyle Spooner
EDIT: The mixture was not compacted at all

Edited by pyrodude, 26 February 2004 - 09:08 PM.

[Rhodri]

Reads to me as if an excess of sulphur dioxide evolved.

Your lungs must hurt - (can you still taste blood in your mouth?)

Please SLOW DOWN!

NOW STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING. FULL STOP.

Why were you SO close to this device after you'd 'passed fire'?

Please can you read, RE-READ and then comprehend the pinned post on SAFETY before embarking on any more adventures.

[pyrodude]

As soon as i had lit the fuse i stood back about 15-20 meters so i wasnt exactly close to it when it went off. I am pretty safety conciuos usually apart from the fact that i didnt wear protective clothing. I always stand well back but the smoke from this comp just engulfed me and when it did i moved even further away and eventually went into the house. The smoke was still there 10 minutes later.
Cheers Kyle Spooner

[BigG]

Back to your original question (I was going to hammer you with some safety Phrases as well, but others done a great job before I got to you )

I?m wondering why were you thinking that the composition in question would produce slow burning white fire. Aluminium is an average fuel but will most definitely increase the burning rate.

Slow white fires are a result of a lengthy research. They usually include some SLOW burning fuel or additional component that ?chokes? the fire with large amount of ash.

The following are from Lancaster:
White fire (1):
KNO3: 74
Sulphur: 8
Orpiment: 18

White fire (2):
KNO3: 13
Potassium Perchlorate: 64
Antimony Metal Powder: 13
Copal Gum: 10

I would not advise to use the first composition. Orpiment is highly toxic and require to where good protection.

If you want REALLY slow compositions then we are talking lances. Those are design to be a part of lance work and therefore are preticlerly slow. They are charges in a similar manner to fountain. This again, from Lancaster:

KNO3: 65
S: 20
Antimony metal powder: 10
Mealed gunpowder: 5.

Lancaster states that a 9cm lance should burn 50-60 sec. I hope this is slow enough. Oh, by the way. Lances are designed to be ignited horizontally, and this is important. If placed like fountain then are very likely to choke.

[pyrodude]

Excellent. Cheers Big G.
Kyle

[Thudkaboom]

you are forgetting the important ones, those ones don't cause the coughing.
SULPHUR DIOXIDE (g), an irritant of the lungs, though nowhere near as nasty as sulphur trioxide, gives the smell anyway
HYDROGEN SULPHIDE (g) gives a nasty smell, poisonous, creates sulphurous acid
POTASSIUM SULPHIDE (g), ???
ALUMINIUM SULPHIDE (g) ???
ALUMINIUM OXIDE (G) ???

Alumium, it's salts and gasses are linked to Alzheimer's! much wors than a bad smell I would say.

[seymour]

The 'scientist' who pushed that belief was in the brass cookware business. New Aluminium cookware was a threat to his market.

I believe that it has been shown that Alzheimer's to cause a build up of Aluminium in the brain, and that there is nothing to suggest that it is the other way round (Aluminium in brain causes Alzheimer's).

Still, Alzheimer's or not, it is best to minimize how much of an inert powder you breathe in or otherwise absorb.