82 replies to this topic

[www.oliverbrown.co.uk]

I wonder what impact the new changes in law will have on hobbyists as you will not be able to recieve via a courier anymore and will need to collect in person?

There are not many of us suppliers in the UK so I'm sure it will mean an awful lot of travelling to collect supplies, on top of that I doubt all suppliers will alow customers to collect for security reasons, I certainly won't.

Has there been any clarifacation on business to business transactions, can these be sent via a courier?

[phildunford]

Yes, for all this being presented as legitimising the hobby, it's actually a total disaster. Unless suppliers can somehow check your licence (& why should they take on an extra burden) they can't sell to you. There is no network of high street retailers, so these substances are now effectively banned.

 

The effect will be to create a network of underground suppliers selling at inflated prices.

 

Thank god KNO3 & sulphur are not banned - yet...

[Arthur Brown]

Certainly no trade chemical supplier will bother selling small amounts that have a complicated paper trail.

[dave]

what about sending them a pdf scan of your licence, presumably it will have a licence number on ?

the seller could then note that for his records.

 

if thats no good, what a complete con

 

I think I said it before, they basically don't want the man in the street to have these materials, they want us all to watch eastenders or some other crap and become compliant vegetables

[Arthur Brown]

Maybe it's time for the Society to organise regular meets where pyro can be talked over lunch and traders can deliver ordered material on sight of certificates. Maybe it's time to more of the suppliers to more closely work with the Society.

[Arthur Brown]

Well it's either we meet and ingredients are transacted correctly, or we refuse the offered licence and live under the threat of prosecution for under the counter deals, or we each form Limited Companies which means that any chemical company can supply but still may report suspicious transactions.

 

This legislation is unfit for purpose but it's better than the rest of the EU has (a total ban).

[Arthur Brown]

It looks as if the regulation will backfire because I wouldn't travel far for a kilo but maybe I would for 50 kilos, Would this mean that every pyro hobbyist would suddenly transition from a small stock to a HUGE chemical stockholding 

 

Actually the more I think on it a small LTD company will be cheaper than getting a hobby pyro chemical permit as then I can just send an order and receive a delivery.

[www.oliverbrown.co.uk]

£20 to set up a LTD company, end of year books will show zero turnover so you don't need an accountant to do that for you, submit online yourself.

 

I still have not seen in the legislation where it says companys are not included?

[Steve]

Oliver, why would you not allow collections? Inoxia has always accepted collections from the warehouse, but Dunsfold Park is a secure site, not sure where you keep your chemicals.

The government did answer some questions regarding internet sales:

Some respondents commented that the addition of a simple text box to on-line forms for licence details would not be too onerous, but this would depend on how the website is run.

The provision of an on-line licence verification system will assist in safe-guarding internet sales.

Some respondents felt that sales of the restricted chemicals should only be made face-to-face.

The Government feels that as long as suitable checks and safe-guards can be applied, on-line sales could continue. 

Respondents commented that asking delivery drivers to check documents would incur a cost as the drivers would need to be trained and the checks would take extra time. The risk of possible loss of business was also raised.

Licence and identification checks are a necessary part of the safe-guards mentioned above.

 

Which isn't great, all our potassium perchlorate is shipped by hazardous good courier, and they would not be willing to deal with license checks.

 

The license will include a restriction in quantity based on your intended use, so you would unlikely be allowed to buy 25kg for amateur pyrotechnics, when the first licenses are issued in a month or so we'll know more on this.

Any purchases will need to be logged by the supplier on the license, along with basic ID checking, this rules out using a delivery company.

 

Inoxia will continue to supply potassium perchlorate to licensed customers who collect and business by hazardous goods courier.

As a silver lining to all this, Ammonium Perchlorate is a tricky substance to sell legally, but buyers with a license for Potassium Perchlorate would solve a lot of duty of care problems, and once things settle down, I'm going to look into supplying this to licensed buyers.

[Steve]

If you're thinking of setting up a limited company to acquire these chemicals don't call it "bob's bits", be upfront, and name it Bob's Pyrotechnic Research. Although companies do not need a license, sellers still need to scrutinize who they are selling to and prove an "on-going business need for the restricted and above concentration Annex 1 chemicals".

 

Don't forget that Oxalic acid and Barium salts (other than barium sulphate, barium carbonate and barium silicofluoride) are now restricted under the poisons side and may be worth adding them to any license application. (The have always been illegal to sell to the general public under the old poisons legislation, but now it will be illegal to buy as well as sell without licenses).

[dave]

lets form our own "old boys network"...........

 
get our ties while we are at it, from

http://www.ryderamie...e865614502904a3

 

actually, having a pyro tie might not be a bad idea.............

 

back on topic, maybe limited company is the way to go then

[Arthur Brown]

As these particular regs govern the sales of Explosives Precursors to individuals, being a recognised business with paperwork, bank account etc -needn't even be limited completely takes these regs out of the picture. There will ALWAYS be the requirement for vendors to report suspect sales, but a recognised pyro company buying pyro ingredients in sensible quantities shouldn't be suspect.  

[digger]

OK, I have read the legislation carefully. Business to business transactions are exempt from licencing, however there is still an obligation to report suspicious transactions.

 

Yes mail order is effectively banned as Oliver brown has pointed out, because the supplier has to fill the details of every transaction onto the back of the licence. The only way around this would be to send you licence to the supplier for every order, I am not sure if this is even allowed. So no amount of online verification can get round this one.

Edited by digger, 31 August 2014 - 11:01 PM.

[www.oliverbrown.co.uk]

Thanks for the clarifaction Digger, it's what I suspected, grant licenses to allow people to buy products they can't obtain, it's fine if you live a travelable distance from suitable supplier, for the masses this is not practical at all so it's either an end to a hobby or find someone willing to sell off ticket at whatever price they like to charge...

[wayne]

I would suggest that this need formal clarification.  I'll pose the relevant questions at the HO.

 

In the event that collection is the only way to obtain these chemicals, why is that going such a devastating blow?  If you're serious about an hobby you'll do what you have to do.  If you're running out of Perc, you'll place an order for enough for a number of months/years (together with any other chems needed) and go and collect.  Yes, this could be potentially hundreds of miles, but so what?

 

Fishermen travel hundreds of miles each week to fish a river they want to fish.  I travel hundreds of miles to ride a motorcycle trial.  If you want to pursue an hobby, in all seriousness, a bit of travel now-and-again is not going to stop you!

Edited by wayne, 01 September 2014 - 08:14 AM.