78 replies to this topic

[martyn]

The main thing is, be honest and upfront. ............. Any extra affiliations to bodies such as the UKPS will also help demonstrate competence so don't forget to get your membership card out! ...............

Yep - mine took a record of my membership number.

They also came mob handed, well there were two of them

[dave]

how is it that different police forces can add their own requirements

when their additional requirements are not mentioned in the letter of the law ?

 

reading a few of the above posts, this is the impression given

[Arthur Brown]

I think the security of the powder is their interest, and they know about the general security of the area. Bit like car insurance, areas differ in risk, hence cost and precautions needed.

[dannytsg]

Yeah, very area specific.  Devon and Cornwall are happy without alarms, or double glazed.  I do have two big dogs, and am very rural.  They do ask that the storage box is chained to the wall in it's storage place though.

 

Look forward to hearing that you get it sorted

 

Cheers

 

From what I have been informed GMP want a house alarm, triple lock doors and also a locked secure storage space to keep the box in. All being well I have ticked those points but tomorrow will tell. I will update with information from the visit as soon as I have had it tomorrow.

[dannytsg]

Okay. I have had my visit today and it seemingly went very well. Here is a brief synopsis of what went on and the pertinent points:

 

Greater Manchester Police as my area force look at the following when it comes to granting an A&K:

 

• Home Security
• Storage
• Reasoning
• Competence
• Clarity of knowledge

Home Security:

 

During my visit the ELO assessed the security of the property. GMP insist that anyone being granted an explosives certificate have an alarm on their home. Admittedly the guidance doesn't specify that an alarm is a requirement but it does state that the certificate holder must take all reasonable precautions and GMP insists a house alarm is taking a reasonable precaution. They also assessed the suitability of the locks on my doors and took into account that we have a dog.

 

Storage:

 

I had already purchased a storage box in line with guidance on storage of shooters powder. This was inspected by the ELO and I was asked what quantities I intended to store within the box. Once this was clarified the ELO asked to look where I intended to put the storage box. I showed them the area and asked whether they thought it was suitable enough. This was clarified that it would be okay and we discussed who would have access to the area.

 

Reasoning:

 

The ELO then had some questions with regards to the reasoning for applying. We discussed why I applied for the certificate, discussed the UKPS and the new regulations and also went into detail about how I plan to carry out the experiments should I be granted an A&K and also where I planned to carry them out. Luckily for me I have a shed that I plan to re-purpose once I have the relevant paperwork. I advised the ELO what types of experiments would be being carried out and clarified the process of making a composition using the stored/manufactured BP. This would be done in the shed, away from the house. Once the fountain, rocket etc was made I would immediately use it and record the results on the relevant testing sheets.

 

Competence:

 

This was an area that was covered during the discussion with the ELO. The ELO wanted to know what competencies I have with respect to pyrotechnic experimentation and manufacture; and also if I had any documented training. I advised that the only thing I could say is that I am a member of the UKPS and have endeavored to gain knowledge through the society using the UKPS guidance document as well as collating the relevant guidance and learning the pertinent parts of the legislation to make reasonable steps towards this application. The ELO understood and advised me that competence/reasonable steps are what they are looking for when assessing applications, as after all, they are trying to tell from a 45 minute visit whether a person is suitable to possess explosives, especially in light of the new legislation and the experimental manufacture of pyrotechnic articles.

 

I subsequently offered my membership card for them to view and the ELO took down the membership number. They stated that they may write to the society to confirm the legitimacy and clarify the details of my membership, and if they do so this would only further validate the application. This was by no means anything detrimental, the ELO just advised that they have to consult their superiors prior to the grant of an A&K with all the relevant information from the visit and having the membership details certainly helped towards this process.

 

Clarity of knowledge:

 

This was something that was covered throughout the course of the visit and really consisted of some knowledge checking whilst we were discussion other items. The mains things asked where with regards to the times fireworks/pyrotechnic articles can be set off, what quantities of black powder can be stored on an A&K and general references to the guidance as well as the legislation such as the 100g rule with regards to quantities etc.

 

Overall the visit went well and the ELO was happy with storage and security. They are going to consult with their superiors given all the information and then I should hear whether I get the okay within the next few weeks.

 

The main thing to remember is that the new guidance is new to the police and as such application for A&K based on the pyrotechnic experimentation justification are just as new to them as the process and application is new to us. Everything being equal it was a very informative and insightful visit. The ELO was very open minded and really just wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to be a danger to myself, my family or anyone else should I be granted a certificate, especially in the current climate with heightened terror threat.

 

One of the points that did come out of it was with reference to proving competency. Would this be something that the UKPS could look into? Maybe for the benefit of members, the UKPS could have some way of assessing competence whether it be based on knowledge, legislation or practical application and a record of such for each member.

 

We did also discuss flash powder and I was advised that this can only be granted on acquire only as there are specific separation distances within the legislation/guidance that rule out A&K in a domestic premises. I advised that flash would be something I would want to apply for in the future but first and foremost I wanted too attain the A&K for black powder and go from there.

 

Anyway I should hopefully hear if I have been given the okay within a few weeks.

[rocketpro]

Thanks for going to the trouble of writing all that Dan, much appreciated.

You mentioned "they" a few times, does that mean there were two chaps visiting you?

[phildunford]

Very informative  - thanks very much for posting this information.

 

Competency is a tricky one to prove. I suggest the committee put this on the agenda for the next meeting & discuss if there is any way UKPS  can help .

[dannytsg]

Very informative - thanks very much for posting this information.

Competency is a tricky one to prove. I suggest the committee put this on the agenda for the next meeting & discuss if there is any way UKPS can help .

I think it may be worth some consideration. The ELO basically said they need to have a reasonable belief that the applicant has some competence and eluded that just being a member of the UKPS doesn't necessarily indicate competence, but it does show diligence on the applicants behalf.

How the UKPS would prove competence is a difficult one though. I did manage to explain though that in this hobby the real competence is based in practical application, something which can't legally be done without having the correct licenses/certificates and thus creates a bit of a catch 22.

All in all the whole visit was good as the questions posed by the ELO made me consider my actions at every turn, not only in relation to storage but also exactly what I wanted to accomplish. It helped me to discuss the suitability of my planned workspace in the shed, the process of making a pyrotechnic article and also the way in which I test them.

I would encourage anyone on here thinking about applying to do so and not be afraid of the ELO and their questions, afterall they just want to make sure everyone is safe and the application based on experimental pyrotechnics is very much new to them and it gives them more to consider. Especially seen as the open reason for applying is to make a pyrotechnic device using the blackpowder applied for.

@RocketPro - that's my incorrect use of typography. There was only one ELO who came, they already had a copy of the UKPS guidance document with them which is a good thing as it shows the UKPSs's work is getting out there.

My top tips for application would be the following:

1) ensure you have good home security, a house alarm and good locks are a good starting point
2) get an approved storage box prior to applying so that it can be inspected on the visit - if you don't have one it would mean a return visit and a longer process
3) find a suitable place to keep the box I.e. A wardrobe, in a location away from ignitions sources and escape routes. Once you have one get a lock and hasp so that you can secure the storage box somewhere you only have access too.
4) print off the UKPS guidance document as well as the guidance on safety and storage of explosives and put these in a file. Having them to hand on the visit shows diligence and that you are aware of your requirements as the applicant
5) think about where you plan on mixing compositions and if it is suitable. Ideally a shed or workshop external to te house for making up test pieces but NOT for storage.
6) be honest with the ELO. They are there to ELO and are open minded. Use the time to ask them questions as well and benefit from their knowledge

[maxman]

Well written Danny, pretty much what I found. I am still unsure about drying stars especially non BP ones that comprise of comps which are on acquire cert only.

 

Rod

[rocketpro]

Drying stars I imagine are still in the state of manufacture - not effectively being stored?

 

Wouldn`t stars be HT3 or HT4 ?

 

I thought only Flash was acquire only?

[dannytsg]

Drying stars I imagine are still in the state of manufacture - not effectively being stored?

Wouldn`t stars be HT3 or HT4 ?

I thought only Flash was acquire only?

Flash is acquire only according to the ELO as the separation distances cannot be safely met in most domestic circumstances. Obviously if you have a suitable building that adheres to the guidelines and separation distances then you could possibly get A&K for flash

[maxman]

Can flash and pyro comps not be on acquire and keep at <100g? as there are no separation distances. Having said that personally I refer to star comps as there is no need to keep flash anyway.

 

My concern is that acquire only states to be used immediately and not kept overnight. Didn't want to fall foul of this while drying stars for a week.

 

Rod

[fruitfulsteve]

Very informative  - thanks very much for posting this information.

 

Competency is a tricky one to prove. I suggest the committee put this on the agenda for the next meeting & discuss if there is any way UKPS  can help .

 

Was just thinking the same thing.

 

Obviously it would be great to be able to get a manufacturer to maybe run some sort of course, even if it was only theory so long as it covered safe practice and such like i'm sure it would go quite some way to proving competence. Not sure how viable this would be though.

 

The next meeting is on the 12th, please feel free to put forward any suggestions you might have on the subject and we'll look into them.

[dannytsg]

Maybe some sort of legislative knowledge test that could maybe be completed online by member. This would provide a record that member number 'X' undertook the legislative knowledge test on a given date and gained a 80% pass mark.

It's definitely a hard one but competence is something that needs to b able to be demonstrated when asked. I found myself today floundering as I couldn't really offer any verifiable competence to the ELO other than my knowledge I have gained and the potential practices I would undertake.

[fruitfulsteve]

Good idea, would save a lot of travel to.