41 replies to this topic

[GMetcalf]

I finally got a call back from the ELO to let me know his final decision will be a no with regards to an Acquire and Keep. However, he did offer to come round and visit because apparently everyone is entitled a visit! He did give me the helpful bit of advice that rather than waiting for them to refuse my application, I should withdraw it myself as this looks better in the future if I reaply.

While I had him on the phone, I asked to clarify what exactly is possible to make with the 100g exemption. So I figured writing it here on the forum would help clarify for everyon exactly what's allowed. He made it very clear, NO production of any explosive can be done without an explosives certificate. The 100g rule exists for the matter of separation distances and basically means the maximum amount of explosive anyone, anywhere can own without needing to take special measures for storage is 100g. To be able to possess the said 100g though, it would have to be acquired from somewhere and the process of acquiring it requires an explosives certificate.

He did clarify which explosives we are able to own and play with without a certificate though and it is effectively restricted to Black Powder Substitutes (e.g. Pyrodex, 777 etc).

Hopefully that should help anyone who was still confused regarding legislation.

[maxman]

Did you get a reason for refusal? or do you know what that is anyway?

 

Rod

[dave]

sounds like you may have been fobbed off ?

 

maybe to see how determined you are ?

[GMetcalf]

Nope he was quite clear about the reasons and I've had multiple conversations with him in the past about it. He even spoke to his seniors (both the Sergeant and the Governor) about it and they both also agreed I should not be granted a license now. However he didn't rule it out in the future.

[martyn]

In my opinion he's wrong.

An acquire and keep for BP allows you to acquire (by manufacture (sub 100g) or otherwise) and keep BP.

An A&K is an explosives certificate for the named explosive.

The '100g rule' is not about separation distances in this context.

An explosive certificate is required for other (non BP) pyrotechnic compositions, he was correct about that.

This seems exactly the sot of rubbish the UKPS should be onto.

one step forwards, two steps back.

He may or may not be able to refuse a cert on some other grounds, but not on the ground that amateur pyro experimentation is not a valid reason for using BP.

What police force are you dealing with.

 

PS I think he may be confusing the separation distance bit because BP A&K holders can usually have up to 15Kg!! (from memory) without having to use the usual 1.1 distances as long as it is stored in an approved box.

Edited by martyn, 15 May 2015 - 09:26 PM.

[wayne]

I'll assume here that the certificate application was rejected due to personal circumstances and not the ELO being over zealous.

 

He's not quite right, some explosives can be manufactured without an explosives certificate, unfortunately, they're not really pyro related.  The only explosives that can be manufactured up to 100g without an explosives certificate are those listed here:

 

http://www.legislati...schedule/2/made

 

Anything else will require a explosives certificate.

 

He he correct that separation distances don't come into effect until quantities exceed 100g, but as Martyn says, others separation exemptions exist such as BP stored in a compartmented box.  Regulation 6(2)(a) (http://www.legislati...gulation/6/made) does go hand-in-hand with the separation as the regulation is about experimentation, demostration etc.  It was decided (in MSER) that any experimentation up to 100g shouldn't have to worry about separation.

[exat808]

The "100g rule" is solely in relation to an exemption from the requirement to have a manufacturing licence - as per Reg 6 of ER2014. Please remember that exemption from a licence to manufacture does not exempt the person from certification if any explosive manufactured is of a type that requires to be shown on a certificate. 

 

"100g"  also features in ER2014 at Reg 27 which states that Separation Distances do not apply for amounts less than 100g - in reality this only applies for HT1 and HT2 explosives as HT3 starts at 25kg and HT4 at 250kg

 

Applications for either type of certificate in accordance with Regs 4,5, and 11 must satisfy the following criteria - ( which are the grounds for refusal found at Reg19)

 

• The applicant has "Good Reason"
• The applicant is a responsible person who may be permitted to acquire the relevant explosives without danger to the public safety or the peace
• The applicant will take all reasonable precautions to prevent access to the relevant explosives by unauthorised persons and to prevent loss of the explosives
• The applicant is not a prohibited person 
• and where the certificate relates to the keeping of relevant explosives the applicant does not hold a licence by virtue of Reg 7(2) ---(paraphrased a bit here)

 

 Failure to satisfy any 1 of the above will result in a refusal of the application.

 

Additionally - A chief officer of police must not issue a certificate to a person if he is satisfied that the person is of unsound mind or intemperate habit!!!  - Reg 19(1)

 

Hope all this helps.

[exat808]

Just spotted an error in the advice given to GMetcalf, who said in his post - 

 

He did clarify which explosives we are able to own and play with without a certificate though and it is effectively restricted to Black Powder Substitutes (e.g. Pyrodex, 777 etc).

 

This is not accurate advice - Schedule 2 part 2 para 15 of ER2014 lays out the specific conditions that must be met before smokeless powders (UN0161 and 0509) can be acquired without certificate. Unless you are the holder of one of the specified types of firearm related certificates or permits then acquisition must be by route of explosives certificate!  

[David G]

So it seems the law "change" that Wayne et al fought for has ended up being a detriment to experimentation legally. Oh well,no change there then.

[wayne]

David, please don't comment if you've nothing constructive to say. 

 

In this instance, the ELO was't able to grant the certificate due to circumstances in which the applicant couldn't satisfy the necessary application requirements (see Exat's post above).  If an individual can satisfy the criteria, then the certificate would be granted.  Therefore, in what way has ER2014 been a detriment to experimentation?  After all, you would have required an explosive certificate with MSER.

 

The UKPS have taken a fresh stance on forum moderation in an attempt to keep topics useful, informative and purposeful.  Please keep things constructive going forward.

[martyn]

Not at all.

Under the old mser law, it was allowable because of the so called 100g rule to manufacture up to 100g, HOWEVER, had you done so you would have fallen foul of COER because you would have had an explosive without a certificate, oddly flash would have been ok though.

The 100g exemption that people thought meant they could make small amounts with was only ever and still is an exemption from requiring a manufacturing licence.

What Wayne and others have done is to regularise and confirm with the home office that amateur pyro experimentation is a legitimate reason for having BP and other pyrotechnic compositions (and maintain the amount at 100g) so that we should be granted (subject to meeting personal and security criteria) an A&K or / and an A only for  the explosives we make.

The 100g rule sorts out the manufacturing bit, the granting of explosives certs sorts out the possession and keeping bit.

It's all in the one act now.

[sfxdan3]

Apologies for my ignorance in advance. But I'm new to the process of getting an acquite licence.

Firstly, how much does the cert cost? Do you need to renew the cert both with an application or monetary wise every few years?

The 100g rule that many people have cited in this thread. Does it include all substances combined? Or can you have several substances all below 100g each?

[dannytsg]

Sorry to hear about this GMetcalf. Where does this now leave you then in terms of the hobby? I'm still awaiting a decision on my A&K in Manchester area but fear that it will be the same.

[GMetcalf]

I should clarify, I'm not an 'unauthorised' person. The main reason it wasn't granted was simply the quantity of Black Powder the certificate would grant me access to. He made no mention of being able to restrict the quantity I was allowed to manufacture to 100g. In fact he stated that because I live in an urban area, the maximum would be capped at 15kg Black Powder. He deemed that this was unsafe and therefore said I would not be granted a license. I have no doubt if the quantity could be capped at 100g I would have my license already.

Thank you for clarifying the point on smokeless powders exat808. I did have a feeling that it wasn't quite right, else what would be stopping people turning it into firecrackers...

sfxdan3:
The certificate is free. However you have to satisfy a number of conditions to be awarded it including a clean criminal record, no mental health disorders, show competence handling explosives and have a suitable site of manufacture and storage. The 100g rule that everyone cites still requires you to have an explosives certificate to make the quantities and when you have said certificate, it will outline all the quantities you are limited to producing.

[fruitfulsteve]

Just to clarify, do you live in a block of flats ? If not i would double check that he is allowed to refuse A&K on the grounds you mention. The quantity of 15kilos stored in a multiple compartment box is surely the amount deemed safe for home storage, most homes are in urban areas.