41 replies to this topic

[David G]

Just to clarify, do you live in a block of flats ? If not i would double check that he is allowed to refuse A&K on the grounds you mention. The quantity of 15kilos stored in a multiple compartment box is surely the amount deemed safe for home storage, most homes are in urban areas.

I believe you are correct. Also when filling in the application for experimental pyro,you can specify
amounts yourself on the application. ie UN0027 <=100g so that should not become an issue.

[GMetcalf]

I live in a semi-detached house and carry out most manufacturing procedures outside and store my finished explosives in a locked 18mm plywood box. It's more an issue of not feeling I'm competent or safe to handle such a large quantity of explosive.

dannytsg:
As far as the Police is concerned, I have to give up the hobby until a time when I am awarded an Acquire and Keep license. I did speak to the ELO about my possession of various precursor chemicals such as Potassium Nitrate etc. and he granted no one would come knocking on my door at 5am as it's perfectly legal to possess said chemicals. If I'm still in possession of Potassium Perchlorate by the time the EPP licensing is required then I can contact him directly and he can come and remove it. Still undecided what exactly to do with all my stock and tools.

[fruitfulsteve]

In the great scheme of things i doubt 15kilos of BP would be classed as a large quantity of explosives.

 

Sounds like Rogers competency course could be just the thing for you.

[exat808]

I should clarify, I'm not an 'unauthorised' person. The main reason it wasn't granted was simply the quantity of Black Powder the certificate would grant me access to. He made no mention of being able to restrict the quantity I was allowed to manufacture to 100g. In fact he stated that because I live in an urban area, the maximum would be capped at 15kg Black Powder. He deemed that this was unsafe and therefore said I would not be granted a license. I have no doubt if the quantity could be capped at 100g I would have my license already.

I think that for clarity it must be explained that an A&K certificate will permit the unlicensed keeping of up to 15kg of BP. The ELO cannot apply conditions to the A&K in terms of quantity as the amount is determined either by the unlicensed keeping provisions at Reg 7(2) or by the terms of a license issued to the site for storage in accordance with Regs 12 and 13.

An AO certificate however does set a limit on the amount of explosive that may be acquired on any one occasion.Remember that an AO does not permit keeping.

 

Having read and re-read GMetcalfs posts regarding his application I too am now becoming concerned that he has been asked to withdraw his application rather than have it refused because it would appear on the basis of information supplied to the forum that he does fit the criteria for being granted and I would re-inforce this matter by referring to ER2014 Reg11(3) which states that a Chief Officer must issue a certificate if satisfied that the applicant is a fit person

I have issued many A&K's over the years to persons living in urban areas including blocks of flats, social housing schemes etc. provided that the premises afford a reasonable level of security, and that the BP is to be kept in the wooden box option prescribed by the Guidance to the Regulations L150 then as a fit person he must be granted a certificate. 

[fruitfulsteve]

In point 17 GMetcalf does say "It's more an issue of not feeling I'm competent or safe to handle such a large quantity of explosive."  Could this be construed as his ELO not considering him a fit person on lack of competency grounds ?

[dannytsg]

In point 17 GMetcalf does say "It's more an issue of not feeling I'm competent or safe to handle such a large quantity of explosive." Could this be construed as his ELO not considering him a fit person on lack of competency grounds ?

I think that is where this is falling down. No proof of competence is most likely being used as the reason of someone not being classed as a 'fit person' but this is more than likely an ELO's opinion rather than fact.

[martyn]

Well, an 18 year old criminal, insane, retard can go and buy and store for an unlimited time, 5kg neq of explosives, as fireworks.

He can buy and store 50kg under his bed next to his gas heater if he wants, for 3 weeks.

What are these ELO's playing at, we only want to store what is a universally accepted amount (in practice we would store much less than is allowed), in a universally accepted box.

This amount and box has a standing in law as an exemption.

I just think they are maybe either anti amateur pyrotechnics or really haven't caught up with the new legislation yet. It never was allowed, so it still isn't allowed mentality.

 

As an anomaly, I believe I'm correct in saying that pre the new regs it was perfectly legal to make <100g of flash powder!!!!! It was one of the comps listed on the exempt schedule (0094, 0305 flash powder)

If you had any old video evidence of you making and using flash powder safely, and you still have all your fingers, then I can't see how an elo could then refuse to issue you with an acquire only for flash powder which is a legitimate pyro composition, albeit not often used except to make a noise. If he was then prepared to issue a cert for flash he would have a pretty hard time justifying a refusal for bp and other pyrotechnic compositions.

That's not really a serious suggestion, but I mention it to highlight the stupidity of what's happening now.

Edited by martyn, 17 May 2015 - 02:45 PM.

[fruitfulsteve]

All very good points, i have been arguing a lot of them myself. I don't think the word hypocrisy has been included in the dictionary's issued to civil servants. 

 

Personally i think that the very fact that someone has gone to the trouble and expense (£120 for EPP) of applying for A&K EPP should be reason enough (subject to good character checks) to grant them. These people are trying to do the right thing, no one that i know of asked for restrictions to be put on previously freely available chemicals. A classic example of licensing: The system used to take something away from you so it can then be sold back to you. Ok it's all done to protect our freedom from terrorists but who is protecting our freedom from the people protecting our freedom ???? Surely, let law abiding citizens go about their business freely, use the money saved from spying on the law abiding citizens to keep a proper eye on the people that are actually classed as a threat to security.

 

Surely the only people that need cars that have a top speed of over 70mph are racing car drivers yet despite all the time spent by traffic cops and the 'cost' to the tax paying public to keep these speed limit breaking hard core criminals under control, no one has introduced special 'licensing' for cars that go over 70mph, i could be wrong but i suspect far more people are killed by speeding cars than they are by people using potassium perchlorate ?!?!? Terrorists did once i believe drive a car full of gas canisters into a airport terminal then set alight to it. I know people keep saying this but it is true. The simple fact is that all these laws brought into 'protect us from terrorist' affect/inconvenience/delay law abiding citizens on a daily basis yet have little affect on the determined terrorist, surely by that rational the terrorists are the ones laughing.

 

Obviously the society's stance is another thing all together. Basically, We have clarified the law, ok it's not as good a deal as we hoped for, but 'we' (most of us) can, subject to a certain amount of hoop jumping, pursue our hobby. I don't like it but i really think we need to stick with it, build numbers, prove validity and move forward. Maybe next ELR we can get a better deal....

 

Also on the subject of ELO's i think it's worth remembering that the ELO's (or at least most of them) had very little to do with writing/clarifying the laws/regulations that we now have to adhere to, and they have to implement the licensing of, it's a inconvenience for us but their workload has also been increased a fair bit.

[David G]

Steve it is £39.50 for the EPP licence; see here

https://www.gov.uk/g...sive-precursors

 

EPP is easy to get. I agree that this should be able to satisfy the ELO. After all,the HO has done its due diligence check and that,one would think,would be enough to satisfy a civilian member of the police force but it is not.

 

Wayne,this is NOT a negative comment just a factual one. I obtained my EPP with no trouble but cannot convince the ELO that I am capable and responsible enough to be granted an A&K. This is thewhole issue that needs to be addressed.

Edited by David G, 17 May 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[David G]

I think that is where this is falling down. No proof of competence is most likely being used as the reason of someone not being classed as a 'fit person' but this is more than likely an ELO's opinion rather than fact.

Spot on Danny

[fruitfulsteve]

My mistake i thought it was £120 for 3 years (£40 per year) still it doesn't detract from the fact that we now have to apply/pay for a license in order buy/keep chemicals that through no fault of our own are now restricted.

[GMetcalf]

If it is of any consolation, the ELO said having the EPP license would make exactly no difference because as far as he is concerned, having the chemicals is no problem to 'my own and public safety' whereas having 15kg of Black Powder is. I can entirely see where he is coming from and what I intend to do now is to withdraw my application as suggested (pointless fighting with a brick wall) and simply reapply in the future, maybe 6-9 months down the line when things are a bit more amenable to us.

 

What I found most curious though, was after admitting I own pretty much every explosive precursor used in pyrotechnics, he was not at all concerned. But he is worried about me having access to Black Powder via a certificate. Surely if I did intend to do any harm, in any way, I'd still be able to do so as I have all the chemicals! Ah well...

[dannytsg]

If it is of any consolation, the ELO said having the EPP license would make exactly no difference because as far as he is concerned, having the chemicals is no problem to 'my own and public safety' whereas having 15kg of Black Powder is. I can entirely see where he is coming from and what I intend to do now is to withdraw my application as suggested (pointless fighting with a brick wall) and simply reapply in the future, maybe 6-9 months down the line when things are a bit more amenable to us.

What I found most curious though, was after admitting I own pretty much every explosive precursor used in pyrotechnics, he was not at all concerned. But he is worried about me having access to Black Powder via a certificate. Surely if I did intend to do any harm, in any way, I'd still be able to do so as I have all the chemicals! Ah well...

The last part is a bit of a typical attitude. They won't grant you an A& K on their head be it for black powder but have no issue with you owning legally acquired chemicals and the knowledge to make far far more potent compositions. Should anyone wish to do harm they would not be putting themselves forward for the scrutiny that the A&K process involves.

[martyn]

Gmetcalf - why does the elo think that you having bp is any more of a danger to yours and the public's safety, than anyone else who has an A&K for bp?  If you get an answer to that question you will be on you way to knowing why he intends to refuse you.

I'm assuming you meet the necessary character requirements and can provide secure storage (approved box, possibly secured with a chain), possibly an alarm system, and are a fit person.

 

If you read exat808's post you will see that he is required to issue the cert unless he can refuse on one of the stated grounds (which he may be able to for all we know, because you haven't actually said why he is not satisfied you are a fit person)

 

But 'deeming 15kg is unsafe in an urban area' is not a valid reason, you would have grounds for challenging that reasoning in my opinion.

 

He couldn't stop you from storing 5kg of explosives in the form of fireworks, or even 50 kg for a short time. I know they are different hazard divisions but the experts have agreed that if the bp is in an approved box it is safe to exempt it from the usual 1.1 requirements.

 

What police area are you having trouble with?

[starseeker]

Personally Gmetcalf i would not just roll over but follow exat808 advice and tell the ElO you are going to appeal against his decision for the reasons exat808 has stated,take a stand,the law is the law and must be applied equal to all.