29 replies to this topic

[Mortartube]

I have a big problem with over regulation (and IMHO this is just that). Instead of making things safer, it drives people to do dangerous silly things to try to make their own. It is interesting that in the past, some US States that had a complete ban on the sale of fireworks, had more firework accidents than when they were available. A lesson to be learned.

[dave]

this just gets worse and worse

 

WHAT A CROCK LOAD OF CRAP

THE NEW REGS ARE NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE SAYS ON HERE

 

THEY ARE DESIGNED TO MAKE HOBBYIST PYROTECHNICS NON VIABLE

AND WE HAVE ALL BEEN DUPED

 

(I've had a bad day)

[David G]

this just gets worse and worse
 
WHAT A CROCK LOAD OF CRAP
THE NEW REGS ARE NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE SAYS ON HERE
 
THEY ARE DESIGNED TO MAKE HOBBYIST PYROTECHNICS NON VIABLE
AND WE HAVE ALL BEEN DUPED
 
(I've had a bad day)

Spot on Dave

[wayne]

The negativity on here is a real poor show...rather than ranting about something, use your energy to do something positive!

 

All you are doing is dragging down the professionalism of yourself and the society.  If that's your intention, please desist. 

 

1.  As I've done many times before, let me remind you that the regulations didn't change with ER2014, that was the point!  Regulation 6(2)(a) is still present, but may not have been without our intervention.

2.  How does the prohibition of electric igniters inhibit experimental pyro?  You can still make what you like and ignite it by whatever method you like.  You don't necessarily need to use igniters.

3.  New legislation comes out all the time, stop feeling sorry for yourself!  All industries and all hobbies have to change and new regs appear whether you like it or not.  I'm sure there are plenty of plumbers out there that have sweated pipe fittings and fitted a gas fires for many years but still need to regularly retrain with GasSafe.  Why would playing with explosives be any different?

4.  I've not been consulted on any of these regulations, but feel free to point me at the regulations online and I'll take a look.

 

Cheers,

 

Wayne.

Edited by wayne, 11 September 2015 - 10:36 AM.

[dave]

just a few points

 

1) I personally don't have an ematch supply problem, but I strongly object to all this over regulation.

2) the ukfr should be an important player in helping to decide some of the regulation, but I honestly think many hobbyists feel that this has not really been achieved. The face to face transactions being an example of an almost totally unworkable practicable solution.

 

yes, if the ukpyrosoc did not exist, it would be even worse, but I think we could do better to try and oppose proposed new regulations.

 

pity the society is not more like the nra in the usa, but I guess that will never happen

 

oh, and I am entitled to my opinion

Edited by dave, 11 September 2015 - 04:11 PM.

[Gareth]

When I raised this subject I hadn't considered experimental pyro or the achievement in getting that legal clarity.

But I see this as an open doorway - there are more doors to open it seems.

Firstly my enjoyment is definitely in fireworks and small fireworks displays - and I do use ematches.

And I want to get into the experimental part of it myself - but I am taking that one steadily.

I think that if the regs changes in 2017 mean that we cannot use the humble ematch that raises the question: if I cannot obtain one, I cannot make one.

So if my experimental side wanted to make some - I can't.

No matter whether I have EPP + A&K.

This then made me think (see private member topic on same subject) about what getting EPP + A&K means.

I only have my EPP at the moment but distinctly remember it hitting home that this is only to get permission to get the chemicals.

I can't do anything with them.

Until I get A&K.

But then this recent development makes me think that even if I get A&K I can't do anything with it - until I have the "special knowledge".

And I see no way to get that..at the moment.

So I think that the logical next step is training.

But how to get it?  I definitely want it.

I hope I was not being negative - I was disappointed to learn this about ematch restrictions- and I want to raise the issue that we need to start to get a training system in place or we will be in more legal uncertainty.

So I absolutely agree with you about the natural development of any regulations.

But that means we need to keep up the pressure to keep those doors open.

[martyn]

Dave, I assume the second word in point 2 is a typo, ukfr is a forum.

[dave]

Yes,my mistake
Should be ukpyrosoc
Well spotted:)

[Sparky]

Make them yourself....simples. I will also be buying a vast quantity very soon and stockpiling as many as you can reasonably need to tide me over until I work out how to get round the changes.

 

I genuinely respect and applaud all the efforts that certain people on here have made to try and protect the hobby and I hope we all can support them to continue. It is hardly the fault of this organisation or any individuals in it who actively trying to make things better but only partially succeed.

Our problem is we are a handful of enthusiasts with limited resources to meet the various requirements put upon us and we have almost no power. No one cares if we lose the right to buy e match or the right to make small quantities of pyrotechnic devices. The systems in place that create these regulations are not geared up to accommodate these unusual exceptions and we get treated like we were the same as a corporation.

There will always be ways around the restrictions and if you have a creative mind there will be a way. We do need to create a cooperative which contains people in the trade but who can help. I see no reason why we can't work together to create a semi-pro group run like a business with numerous part-time employees just like crew for a fireworks company. If re-enactors can do it then surely we can?

What would it take to create a Pyro Society that had a store, that had insurance, that offered training, that had explosives experts and legal experts to assist with the sharing of knowledge. Why can't we have a co-op of suppliers who can use the stores and supply chemicals via regular meets.

If some half wit can buy a container and stick it in a field in Essex and fill it with CAt2/3 fireworks and sell fireworks once a year out the back of a van LEGALLY then why is it we can't get our act together to start a pyro company that offers pyro services on a small scale but which legitimately empowers members (employees) to get training, get rated by the BPA, learn about A&K, by fusing for their part-time trade have the right to buy e match etc etc etc.

Am I just that naive?

We have people here with A&K. licenses to sell all manner of chemicals, explosives experts, legal; experts, people who run pro fireworks companies and we can't get a membership scheme in place to give everyone the chance to access training and get what they need to buy what they need.

It's a pretty poor show if you ask me and that is not a dig at the people who are trying it's a dig at people who just moan.

[Arthur Brown]

Sparky, The UKPS does offer training and does offer meetups where pyro is possible and practical and legal advice is available and F2F sales can be arranged, but you don't come. 

 

What the UKPS needs is forum members and society members to actually turn up at meetings when they happen. It's personally waring to propose an event when people don't show up.

[wayne]

just a few points

 

1) I personally don't have an ematch supply problem, but I strongly object to all this over regulation.

 

I agree, it does appear a little over-regulated and it doesn't surprise me that the BPA will be the one's to benefit from this!

 

2) the ukfr should be an important player in helping to decide some of the regulation, but I honestly think many hobbyists feel that this has not really been achieved. The face to face transactions being an example of an almost totally unworkable practicable solution.

 

The UKPS will try and get involved with any regulation that affect us but we are a small number of volunteers, spending our own free time and money to do this and that obviously has its limitations.  Unfortunately, we not the size of the BPA/IEXPE and don't have the same resources.

 

As for EPP and face-to-face, yes its inconvienient, but its doesn't STOP you doing anything.  You can still source all the chems you need to pursue experimental pyro, you just need to travel to collect them.  To me, that's not unworkable.

 

yes, if the ukpyrosoc did not exist, it would be even worse, but I think we could do better to try and oppose proposed new regulations.

 

The regulations I think we're all referring to here is, "Pyrotechnic Articles (Safety) Regulations 2010".  These have obviously been around for several years and isn't something to my knowledge that we've been involved in.

 

Opposing regulation is not the way forward unless you're like a fight you won't win.  The way forward is to be involved in the consultation process and find a compromise solution.  The people steering the regulations will always try and take into account anyone valid arguments and attempt to accommodate where possible.

 

pity the society is not more like the nra in the usa, but I guess that will never happen

 

oh, and I am entitled to my opinion

 

Absolutely, we just need to keep it positive and professional.

[wayne]

Make them yourself....simples. I will also be buying a vast quantity very soon and stockpiling as many as you can reasonably need to tide me over until I work out how to get round the changes.

 

I genuinely respect and applaud all the efforts that certain people on here have made to try and protect the hobby and I hope we all can support them to continue. It is hardly the fault of this organisation or any individuals in it who actively trying to make things better but only partially succeed.

Our problem is we are a handful of enthusiasts with limited resources to meet the various requirements put upon us and we have almost no power. No one cares if we lose the right to buy e match or the right to make small quantities of pyrotechnic devices. The systems in place that create these regulations are not geared up to accommodate these unusual exceptions and we get treated like we were the same as a corporation.

There will always be ways around the restrictions and if you have a creative mind there will be a way. We do need to create a cooperative which contains people in the trade but who can help. I see no reason why we can't work together to create a semi-pro group run like a business with numerous part-time employees just like crew for a fireworks company. If re-enactors can do it then surely we can?

What would it take to create a Pyro Society that had a store, that had insurance, that offered training, that had explosives experts and legal experts to assist with the sharing of knowledge. Why can't we have a co-op of suppliers who can use the stores and supply chemicals via regular meets.

If some half wit can buy a container and stick it in a field in Essex and fill it with CAt2/3 fireworks and sell fireworks once a year out the back of a van LEGALLY then why is it we can't get our act together to start a pyro company that offers pyro services on a small scale but which legitimately empowers members (employees) to get training, get rated by the BPA, learn about A&K, by fusing for their part-time trade have the right to buy e match etc etc etc.

Am I just that naive?

We have people here with A&K. licenses to sell all manner of chemicals, explosives experts, legal; experts, people who run pro fireworks companies and we can't get a membership scheme in place to give everyone the chance to access training and get what they need to buy what they need.

 

That is a great idea and one that been around in the UKPS for quite a while.  Unfortunately and as usual, we just don't have the membership to pull it off.  Geographic locations, funding, getting people involved are always the barriers.

It's a pretty poor show if you ask me and that is not a dig at the people who are trying it's a dig at people who just moan.

 

My feelings entirely!  Rather than moaning, do something to help!  Don't just expect the society and its limited volunteer staff to have all the answers!

Edited by wayne, 12 September 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[Sparky]

Hi Wayne

 

Just out of interest are you all well up to speed on this particular legislation for P2 articles, I presume you are of course ? Sorry of this is all old news and if what I have been reading is out of date.

After my rant I spent half the night (I'm a night owl) reviewing its beginnings in the EU standardisation working groups for explosives regs. There was a particular WG5 that lumped a variety of devices into the P2 category and then that was submitted as the EU directive. Most of what I've found it dated back in 2010 when a BIS response to consultation was published. We are listed on that as having been consulted.

I have to confess it wasn't until a Firework supplier mentioned the changes to me that I was even aware of igniters being made P2 and that they could only be supplied to someone who could demonstrate they were a person with specialist knowledge. At first this didn't look to onerous as I would have imagined this could be quite straightforward but when I read the BIS response I was horrified. They clearly have no grasp of what the risks posed by these are and even though the consultation had numerous responses stating the P2 category was a mess, the BIS even agreed but the requirements would be across the board and would require training but worse of all public liability insurance.

Now I'm no expert on this but I do not know of any insurance policy that exists for the hobbyist to be covered for the use of e-matches lol. What has happened here is that they have lumped them in under a group that assumes the only people who could possibly use QM, fuse and e-match safely are CAT4 trained firers but then also must have liability insurance for them to use them so basically only display companies. EVen training is not enough.

This is absolutely insane, it makes it more dangerous for people who fire small displays of what was CAT2/3 as we now have to do so by hand and at close quarters.

This was the BIS response "Our conclusion - what the regulations provide 5.5 Regulation 42 now covers all three categories of specialist knowledge. The provisions in each case have been made fully consistent with each other and in each case the person who wishes to be supplied with a pyrotechnic article must demonstrate to the proposed supplier that he has undertaken the relevant training, has used the relevant category of article and has valid liability insurance for that category of article. We believe these requirements will provide sufficient security to the public without being over burdensome to users or suppliers of pyrotechnic articles."

Is there any value in people contacting the dept. BIS? It seems the consultation was concluded and they didn't listen anyway.

Also the dates for implementation of this directive appears to be now so I'm a bit confused by e match is still available.

[Sparky]

Sparky, The UKPS does offer training and does offer meetups where pyro is possible and practical and legal advice is available and F2F sales can be arranged, but you don't come. 

 

What the UKPS needs is forum members and society members to actually turn up at meetings when they happen. It's personally waring to propose an event when people don't show up.

Hi Arthur

You make a fair point and to be honest it is only since coming back into the hobby after a gap of about a year that I have realised that so much is changing. I was aware of the precursors consultation and took part in that and like everyone else was optimistic we'd finally have our hobby recognised and accommodated only to realise that the licensing restrictions were such that delivery was impractical. Not only that but in reality that 100g rule and legalities about the manufacturing of a device really have never changed much.

Past meetings have been an extremely long way from me and to be frank I am not sure what actual benefit they were. I apologise if I am out of touch with what the events were designed to achieve (aside from fun and getting to know people of course!) but in the context of BPA firer certification, liability insurance and assistance with A&K applications (e.g. gaining experience with a holder) plus the idea of manufacturing I didn't see much there to help me.

I've therefore been focused on getting to work with pyro companies, applying for BPA courses, doing experience days and finding someone who has an A&K for re-enactment...cannons...muskets etc.  

I am down to come to the meet and will do my best but it is a long way, I have a lot of personal commitments and I would like to know as much about what I will learn there.

[wayne]

Can anyone point me at these regulations which states igniters are only for persons with specialist knowledge after 2017?  

 

So far, I can only see the pyrotechnic safety regulations 2010 guidance from the EIG which specifies that igniters are classed as P2 products (requiring persons with specialist knowledge).  The intriguing thing is that this would appear to only be in the guidance and not actually in the regulations themselves, so isn't this restriction simply "guidance" and not actual law?