101 replies to this topic

[David G]

I was going to but after discussions with others in the same situation did not. The general feeling was that it would prejudice the ELO against us. Personally,after my dealings with GMP,I would not be bothered about upsetting one person but....

[maxman]

Isn't that what the ukps should be doing for us?

[David G]

Maybe. I would gladly fully join UKPS if that was done. That would prove that the society wants to support us fully. For that level of help and support,I for one,would reciprocate

Edited by David G, 16 June 2016 - 10:14 PM.

[starseeker]

It seems to me than rather than refuse your A&K which if they did you could launch a challenge as you meet all criteria, they are deciding to ignore the application and hope you go away.

 

This has been dragging to long and is getting no where,just because you launch a complaint it would be against the law to use this to prejudice your application .

[maxman]

On April 18th David G asked "are there any updates on this?" Wayne replied "Yes, there is but I'm just liaising with Danny regarding some points. When I've heard back I'll let you all know." This is now two months ago. Have we been silenced?

 

Rod

[David G]

On April 18th David G asked "are there any updates on this?" Wayne replied "Yes, there is but I'm just liaising with Danny regarding some points. When I've heard back I'll let you all know." This is now two months ago. Have we been silenced?
 
Rod

Feels like it!

[cooperman435]

I'm sorry guys but I have to disagree with a lot of this.

The UKPS is an organisation to bring together the pyrotechnic community and support it, we are doing this.

We are not here to lobby for individual cases as its not realistic or acceptable to devote funds and time into one single case, we also have limits as to what information we are privy to so cannot be fully included in decisions or choices others make (ELOs)

That said I accept that the GMP area is not a single case and as a result we are doing our best but it takes time, a long time! I too would be frustrated in the position your in but it actually changes nothing.

The GMP ELO is refusing to budge, he alone is asking for something that is currently not required (competency) and he alone is of the belief it's necessary. We agree this is wrong but WE are not the people to lobby against him. We are trying to alter this proactively through the routes we have and unfortunately they are slowly being exhausted.

Individuals with grevienaces can do as they wish and we wouldn't stop you but as pointed out once complaints are made he can simply dig his heels in further and make aplications even harder. This is completely your choice though. It would be improper of us anyway to burn bridges by lodging a complaint as this would have more detrimental
effect than it could possibly gain anyone.

Please remember when suggesting we are not supporting people/the community/members that were it not for the good work of Wayne on our behalves that applying for A&K for the use of the hobby wouldn't be possible for anyone at all, no help currently for the members in the effected area but on the whole a great achievement. The same can be said for the EPP licence.

We are supporting you, just not as every single member wants us to do in their case but on the whole we have achieved a great deal and will continue to do so.

No one has been hung out to dry but the timescale of things changing is vastly different from what you want it to be and the method is not as direct as you wish us to take as it benifits you personally but could easily be detrimental for the larger community.

[David G]

So Phil,you have all done what you can then?
Therefore,we may have to launch a complaint on the grounds of legality.
You stated that he,alone,of the ELO'S is requiring proof of competence. Then he
is going against the letter of the law.
Time to ignore this one and demand our rights then.

I will be getting in touch with my MP and the HO about this. Never mind,enough fuss
and hopefully he will be fired but hey ho! he is just a civil (dis)servant.

I have done with the UKPS. No matter what anyone says here now the changes
are too little. The forum changes are ridiculous and detrimental. This has not
been for the better of all just a few. Those that need help and constructive suggestions are basically being told tough we cant/dont want to help proactively.
Sorry Phil,it is my feeling that this is the way it is here.

Edited by David G, 19 June 2016 - 02:16 PM.

[martyn]

.............. We agree this is wrong but WE are not the people to lobby against him. We are trying to alter this proactively through the routes we have and unfortunately they are slowly being exhausted................

 

I would hope it would be part of the remit of the ukps to lobby against individual elo's exceeding their authority when they insist on applicants proving competence. If not the UKPS, who would do it in a cohesive and targeted manner?

 

I am very happy that Wayne seems to be trying to intervene, hopefully on general principles rather than with individual cases.

It is assumed and allowed for in the legislation that we are of unproven and varied competence, that is why we are limited to sub 100g.

From a legal (police) point of view, I believe an untrained girl guide could start work in a licenced explosive factory tomorrow without proving competence and work with Kg's of composition. Other legislation would of course come into play but this is of no concern of the elo.

I know that 100g of many pyrotechnic compositions can do a great deal of  harm, but frankly it is in the same ball park if misused as  cylinders of propane or oxy-acetylene, or a gallon or two of petrol. All of which may be acquired, stored and experimented with without proving competence.

 

Part of the problem, which is very common with us lot, is lack of communication. Most of us don't know what goes on in the background, and as a consequence assume that nothing is happening, where quite possibly it is. Wayne did say that he was hoping to make contact with the elo during a particular week, and then it all went quiet, qyuite possibly having ground to a halt, or possibly on the verge of success, we just don't know. I understand that cards need to be played close to the chest at times, but a fortnightly update of what is and isn't happening or planned would go a long way to satisfying people. It's the same with the agm, none of us plebs know nuffink :-)

[maxman]

I totally agree with your post Martyn. I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

Rod

[wayne]

Hi All, the update is, I'm still trying to make contact!!  I'll continue to try this week.  Point taken on updating more frequently, I will try to do so, even if its the old, "still trying to make contact".

 

All, please bear in mind that the UKPS staff are all volunteers, we do all this at our own cost and in our own time therefore, we do things when we can.  

 

A number of you still seem to have this "them-and-us" view of the UKPS....always remember, its always just "us".  Its a society where a number of members known as the "staff" attempt to do things for all of "us".  This doesn't mean you can't do things for yourself or get involved and do it all of for "us".

 

Its stings a little that some expect so too much from a society which they are not willing to support or assist themselves.  Phil and I can't hold all this up by ourselves...

[cooperman435]

I'll add Vic, Gary and Christina all work too not just me and Wayne :-)

But yes please do volunteer if you want to help us get more done as we're all hectic as it is!

[wayne]

Yes, apologies to Vic, Gary and Chris. I was meaning in respect to legislation/licensing matters but yes, theres a lot more to the UKPS than that.

[wayne]

Good news, I finally made contact with the GM ELO this morning.

 

The conversation was very positive and we discussed a possible way forward.  I don't want to go into detail at this stage until things progress (I don't want to get any hopes up and I don't want to jeopardise any positive outcomes until something is agreed), but I will come back as soon as I have more information. 

 

As it has been discussed before, the GM explosive and firearms licencing department is very stretched so any A&K applications which aren't straight forward to grant (As we know, there is no current definitive competency approval accreditation for them to check) are being put on hold.  I'm hoping that what I've proposed will fill this gap and assist them with competency checks by being quick and easy.

 

I'll be back with more as soon as I can.

Edited by wayne, 24 June 2016 - 02:11 PM.

[megabusa]

Not sure if you have considered this but it would be more flexible if they would recognise different forms of competency proof.

 

For example, I am registered as a senior firer with the BPA. I would hope this shows some form of competence. I know it doesn't prove anything from the chemistry aspect but it does from the point of handling explosive / dangerous materials & the relevant safety related to them.

 

However, many people don't fire professional shows & only use consumer fireworks in addition to experimentation, so they may not have this, so other methods would be needed.