32 replies to this topic

[italteen3]

Have you also considered your ball mill? Are you using a Ball Mill or tumbler? What are your ratios of media to charge and how much volume do they take up in your jar?

I had the same exact problem and still do until my Ball Mill is finished and I hopefully get everything working right. My jar was drastically undercharged and had 25% less media then actually needed. So basically it would take days to get a decent BP.

That is not a definate solution but if all of your chemicals are pure and you have right ratios my guess is something is up with the mill. I would first try milling for 12 hours and if you still have same problem let us know.

[Yugen-biki]

BigG

About the CIA method. I have never tested it, and I can't say I know exactly how it works. But people sometime calls the "Super pulverone method" the CIA method.
There are more than one "super pulverone" -method article in AFN II. But only one is called "super pulverone". The priciple is the same but not the ammounts of water, alkohol... I have tested this method useing different ammounts and the resluts are the same. Just like a lot of stuff in pyro this is no exact science as well. But for me it was a revolution! Over one week I replacer my "geen powder" -lift with the BP of my dreams .
It is very important to mill the C and S! I let my C and S mixture mill for 60h (+-10h depending om ammount) in my ball mill untill a very fine dust. This helps to improve the burning speed a lot!

It's nice to read you liked to read about my experiences!

I have never used BBQ charcoal.

novacat14

I think the "only" problem for you to solve is the particle size of your BP. Just like italteen3 is pointing out.
This might get you down and feel that it's never going to work. But I'm sure you will get rewarded in the end, if you don't give up. When you have done it right, you'll have a big smile on yor face and the time time put down seems like nothing.

BP can never mill long enough, just sufficient enough.

[novacat14]

so i don't need to be worried about over milling my BP?

[BigG]

so i don't need to be worried about over milling my BP?

Theoretically that?s correct. The more you mill, the better the powder. Many members who manufacture better then commercial black powder in the USA, claim to mill for at least 24 hours.

[Kembang Api]

Should there be any theoretical measurement to how fine the green mix is? Ball milling to such a long time, will cause other problems like build up of green mix to the milling ball. This is hard to break it off.

Having a lifting bar in the ball mill will certainly reduce the milling time. I had ball mill my Bp mix for about 2 hours and found that the mix will pass through 100 mesh completely. Now if this mix is fine enough for making a lift charge?
Please note that I still go through the process of pressing the BP mix to about 1.6 tp 1.7 gram density and breaking it to produce a good granulation that pass 10 mesh and retain in 40 mesh.

The result of my BP are still so poor in comparing with the Chinese lift charge that I took it from a 3 inch Chinese shell. I tested it with my star tester tube and I used a same size of star, same size of tube and same amount of lift charge.

Would it be that they are using a different composition altogether? or has anyone tested the Chinese lift charge as a comparison? Thank you.

[BigG]

Should there be any theoretical measurement to how fine the green mix is? Ball milling to such a long time, will cause other problems like build up of green mix to the milling ball. This is hard to break it off.

Having a lifting bar in the ball mill will certainly reduce the milling time. I had ball mill my Bp mix for about 2 hours and found that the mix will pass through 100 mesh completely. Now if this mix is fine enough for making a lift charge?
Please note that I still go through the process of pressing the BP mix to about 1.6 tp 1.7 gram density and breaking it to produce a good granulation that pass 10 mesh and retain in 40 mesh.

The result of my BP are still so poor in comparing with the Chinese lift charge that I took it from a 3 inch Chinese shell. I tested it with my star tester tube and I used a same size of star, same size of tube and same amount of lift charge.

Would it be that they are using a different composition altogether? or has anyone tested the Chinese lift charge as a comparison? Thank you.

Two hours is very short time for milling if you want to get a mix that is equivalent to commercial powder. Even the commercial manufacturers will not mill for less then six, and in most cases much longer. Start with a minimum of 12 hours.

Second, while I heard a lot of people claim to have a powder that supersedes commercial powders, testing of such claims has very little validity unless they are tested on instruments designed for such purpose. Burn rate in the open or height of lift are poor measurement for performance of powder.

Last but not least – if you ball mill for few hours, you should call your mix BP. Green mix is a tern that reserved for a very poorly mixed powders, not those who are ball milled.

[Yugen-biki]

Kembang Api

I'm sure they use the same formula

Mill it untill you can lift a shell/star with it, but not useing loads of lift.
No one can say exactly how many hour is optimum, that is four you to find out. Milling for another couple of hour will solve your problem, I'm sure!

[The_Djinn]

Kembang Api, do you moisten the mix before pressing or just dry press ?
By moistening the mix when pressing forcess the KNO3 and C to bind far better and this can help produce a better BP mix.

Mark

[Kembang Api]

BigG : The longest time spend on ball mill would give a better BP but is there a measurement of the particle size of the mix? The reason of having the lifting bar inside the ball mill is to reduce the time spend on the milling, due to the fact that the milling media is falling on the mix and causing the mix to become smaller.
Would you consider having the mix passing 100 meshes is satisfactory? Or 150 mesh.

The Djin : Yes, I had it moisten with only water and during the pressing stage, you could see some of the water come out from the cylinder. I do not measure the Pressure of the hydraulic but I try to maintain at 1.6 to 1.7 grams density.

Thank you to all of you (yegen-biki too) for having your comments, I will try to ball mill it a bid longer, but still like to find out the particle size, if possible.

[BigG]

BigG : The longest time spend on ball mill would give a better BP but is there a measurement of the particle size of the mix? The reason of having the lifting bar inside the ball mill is to reduce the time spend on the milling, due to the fact that the milling media is falling on the mix and causing the mix to become smaller.
Would you consider having the mix passing 100 meshes is satisfactory? Or 150 mesh.

The Djin : Yes, I had it moisten with only water and during the pressing stage, you could see some of the water come out from the cylinder. I do not measure the Pressure of the hydraulic but I try to maintain at 1.6 to 1.7 grams density.

Thank you to all of you (yegen-biki too) for having your comments, I will try to ball mill it a bid longer, but still like to find out the particle size, if possible.

I would think 100 mesh is way too large for particle size. X-Fine meal is grains that pass 100 mesh but stay on 140 mesh. This is after granulation!!! My powder pass 200 mesh compleatly, and I would not be suprised if it will pass 325 as well - altough I did not try it. How much media do you have in your jar? Is it half full with media?

Edited by BigG, 26 August 2004 - 07:47 PM.

[Kembang Api]

Oops, That is very fine powder. Now I understand why my lift charges is not powerful.

Presently I use my homemade ball mill that made from a 12 inches PVC pipe, running at 96 Rpm. I use ceramic media with 3 different sizes ( 12mm, 15 mm and 22mm). I had it fill to about 20% and the other 30% is BP powder. A lift-bar (15 mm by 20 mm) is screw a long the pipe.

[BigG]

Oops, That is very fine powder. Now I understand why my lift charges is not powerful.

Presently I use my homemade ball mill that made from a 12 inches PVC pipe, running at 96 Rpm. I use ceramic media with 3 different sizes ( 12mm, 15 mm and 22mm). I had it fill to about 20% and the other 30% is BP powder. A lift-bar (15 mm by 20 mm) is screw a long the pipe.

Okay. You should be really looking at about 50% media, and 25% composition. You set up will work fine, but it will just take longer.

The most extensive research that I read (By Lloyd), suggest that the majority of the milling takes place when the balls hit each other and grind whatever is in between. Only very small parts of the milling take place between the balls and the side of the mill jar. 50% media will therefore grind faster then 20% media. More then 50% media start to confine the balls movement and grinding become less efficient.

With 20% media and 30% powder, we are talking a large amount of powder to media ratio. So you are looking at much longer grinding times.

[chemicalwazi]

I recently made some lift powder, using the directions found on the unitednuclear site. I was shocked to find that the powder was horrible under powered. I used 15 grams and i could not launch a 8 gram arial more that 1 meter. I was a bit disappointed, I milled the BP for 3 hours, i have more milling now and am going to keep it in there for 4 maybe 5 hours to see if it helps.


The portions i used are
KNO3~75grams
Charcoal~15grams
Sulfer~10grams

This is correct right? After the BP was milled i added dextrin and a small amount of water so i would have granuals(spelling?) of BP. 

Any thoughts on where i went wrong, and i know BP is not a strict science, just thought I'd ask before wasting more chemicals.

Many thanks for all the help!

Hi novacat14

I also used the united nuclear lift powder last weekend. I did not have a mill then so everything was shake mixed before the water was added.
The charcol i was using was airfloat from kno3.com
Tube i/d = 18mm, length = 118mm Arial = 10.5g barrel shape loose fit

First i tried just 75:15:10 mix at 5g. This lifted 3ft

Then i tried united nuclear's lift granules and got the following

3g lift = 8ft
4g lift = 18ft
5g lift = 21ft

I haven't tried my mill yet. So when i made these granules i pushed the wet mix through a kitchen strainer about 4 times and then dried on paper for a week before use.

Hope this is of some use

Paul

[Creepin_pyro]

I use ceramic media with 3 different sizes ( 12mm, 15 mm and 22mm).

Okay. Is it just me, or is this not a good idea? I thought lead was the ONLY suitable media for BP

[Chaoticentity]

Okay.  Is it just me, or is this not a good idea?  I thought lead was the ONLY suitable media for BP

Ceramic media is non sparking, however it is slightly pourous which can lead to problems if you use it to mill anything other than BP, as long as you dont theres no problem. I have personally had better results by using hardened lead media and beefing up the motor so it can handle the torque.