823 replies to this topic

[Mortartube]

I have read these posts with interest and I am now going to ask a question. There is a purpose to my question which I will reveal later after some answers are in.

What are peoples general view of making flashpowder in the following way? Mainly 70/30 Pot Perch/Al flash.

Take a metal container such as an aluminium pot and put your flashpowder components in it. Pot perch & Al.

Cover the mouth of the pot with a square of Kraft paper held in place with a rubber band and shake the pot gently by hand until the flash is mixed.

Then use the flash however you need to in salutes etc.

Is it safe or unsafe to use this method?

Answers please

[cooperman435]

Unsafe.

the issue of shaking by hand is most dangerous then the issue of shrapnel from the pot is second as with any notable amount if flash the resulting damage to your hand would be your main concern before the injuries to everything else from the shrapnel.

Please say this is not normal practice!

[wjames]

And, from a physical point of view.........it more than likely won't work.

the kraft paper won't seal the container....you'll end up with unmixed compound in the corners.

not to mention the risk of airbourne Al particles, which under the right circumstances, can be explosive.......and correct me if im wrong, but doesnt Al cause Alzheimers...worse than CADMIUM.

Oh, and Al Poisoning will : make you stupid, cause dementia, soften your bones, wreck your kidneys. it causes soft tissue damage to the lungs, and in large doses
( still in milligrams ) it'll stop your heart.

Just remember that next time you look at the tub of Al powder on that shelf. Then put your mask on.

here's what i wear....perhaps a Bit ott......but i happen to have one handy, with some spare filters.......it also comes with the added protection to your eyes

Edited by wjames, 17 October 2008 - 06:51 AM.

[digger]

I have read these posts with interest and I am now going to ask a question. There is a purpose to my question which I will reveal later after some answers are in.

What are peoples general view of making flashpowder in the following way? Mainly 70/30 Pot Perch/Al flash.

Take a metal container such as an aluminium pot and put your flashpowder components in it. Pot perch & Al.

Cover the mouth of the pot with a square of Kraft paper held in place with a rubber band and shake the pot gently by hand until the flash is mixed.

Then use the flash however you need to in salutes etc.

Is it safe or unsafe to use this method?

Answers please

Completely unrelated, well done on becoming a pyro forum top trump!

[Mortartube]

The reason I posted the above was because that is the standard way that the UK military mix their flash and have been doing so virtually since they have been using Al flash.

I only recently found this out. There has never been an accident using this method.

The reason a metal pot is used is that it will conduct away any static charge. I was surprised too at this method, but it was relayed to me by a man who I know has done a number of years making military pyrotechnics at government institutons.

I am not suggesting anyone does this but apparently the diaper method is just too slow and messy for the military.

It is sort of related. It is in the Flash section and with posts in this section relating to mixing and usage etc as in the quote below.

they're not wearing gloves for a reason....

at 100 grams....gloves wont help....as, if it went off, your hands would no longer be attached to your arms....they will be some 50 metres away...unlinke your torso and legs....they landed only 40 metres away.

Perhaps I have been using too much Al Digger and it has confused me. Lol

Edited by Mortartube, 21 October 2008 - 09:58 AM.

[Potassium chlorate]

they're not wearing gloves for a reason....

at 100 grams....gloves wont help....as, if it went off, your hands would no longer be attached to your arms....they will be some 50 metres away...unlinke your torso and legs....they landed only 40 metres away.

Perhaps I have been using too much Al Digger and it has confused me. Lol

I have actually mixed as much as 650 grams of KClO4 and uncoated Mg many years ago. 100 grams of KClO4/German Black isn't unusual, though. And if the military and experienced pyrotechnicians mix it by shaking it, it probably is pretty safe to do so.

So I don't think I was that wrong suggesting to mix flash by using the same container as you would use when you fire it after all...

[mike_au]

and correct me if im wrong, but doesnt Al cause Alzheimers

That is largely unsubstantiated.

According to Dr Karl (an australian popular science presenter) the rumours of Al causing alzheimers came about through a mixture of contaminated water being used for autopsies and early kidney dialysis and a "chemist" who published a booklet on the dangers of aluminium cookware, he also happened to sell stainless steel cookware...hrmmmm.

http://www.abc.net.a...omentsinscience

Alzheimers Australia say that aluminium is worth further investigation, but that no substantial evidence exists of a causal link and any risk, if it exists, is minor.

http://www.alzheimer...etAluminium.pdf

Of course that doesn't mean it is safe to be snorting lines of Al powder, the risk of mechanical irritation of the lungs alone makes it rather nasty but the alzheimers thing is most likely a myth.

[rr22]

"The reason I posted the above was because that is the standard way that the UK military mix their flash and have been doing so virtually since they have been using Al flash."

Sorry to appear obtuse but is this the method that is approved by the Army (M.O.D.) for contractors manufacturing flash devices on their behalf?,or is this some kind of "field expedient" method for squaddies caught short of a thunderflash whilst on manoeuvres?

I always understood commercial salutes were tumbled so I can see it making sense.

It seems strange that this,like most other "specialist" tasks, has not been contracted out years ago.

Interesting stuff.

[Potassium chlorate]

Illusionists actually mix KClO4/Mg flash by shaking it just before use. This I know for sure.

[cooperman435]

on the subject of Alzheimers. My gf is a Psychology student and recent papers suggest that it is the reverse of popular belief.

Aluminium is now believed to not contribute towards Alzheimers, but Alzheimers is believed to cause a build-up of Aluminium in the brain which I believe was the basis for the initial connection.

[bigtonyicu]

I always understood commercial salutes were tumbled so I can see it making sense.

Comercial Salutes are not tumbled in a sealed container, they are intermixed by air current in a grounded machine that prevent static build up.

anyone willing to mechanicly mix flashes containing Antimony Trisulfide should rush to their local nut house an request a 72 hour evaluation.

[Arthur Brown]

Current medical (and that's the day job) thought is that excessive aluminium in the brain of alzheimers sufferers is caused by the pharmacology of the disease preventing normal removal of natural Al.

The one study that started the scare was tainted by being made by a person biased towards selling stainless cookware. -Hardly a neutral investigation! -Hardly a significant sample either!

If the link was officially even considered likely then all soft drink cans would be steel by now!

There is however a risk to the lungs from acute exposure and chronic exposure to fine active dusts. Largely resulting in the destruction of the lung tissue both by physical and chemical damage.

So Yes a respirator is a necessary precaution.

[Potassium chlorate]

Comercial Salutes are not tumbled in a sealed container, they are intermixed by air current in a grounded machine that prevent static build up.

anyone willing to mechanicly mix flashes containing Antimony Trisulfide should rush to their local nut house an request a 72 hour evaluation.

I actually saw one guy dry-mixing "Armstrong's Mix" on Youtube without disaster. Never tried Sb2S3 in flash myself though, but sulphur. Once the mix got a bit warm, like 30 C or so...the room temperature was around 22 C...

[wjames]

thanks for the posts guys...as i said, correct me if im wrong !

[bigtonyicu]

I actually saw one guy dry-mixing "Armstrong's Mix" on Youtube without disaster. Never tried Sb2S3 in flash myself though, but sulphur. Once the mix got a bit warm, like 30 C or so...the room temperature was around 22 C...

NEVER ever trust anything found on Youtube!!!!

And sulfur and Antimony Trisulfide are 2 VERY different beasts, Sulfur isn't conductive, Sb2S3 IS and to make it worst the shape of the grains are very thin needles with a very high resistance to electrical energy, so if mix vigorously and static forms, chances are that the Sb2O3 will carry most of the charge (Al2O3 has a higher resistance) and that means Very hot localized stops witch can lead to ignition...

Tumbling causes:
More friction = More electrical energy = More hot spots = WAY more danger