93 replies to this topic

[knackers]

my sincere appologies to you members of this forum,,,,,,, just one more thing to you digger.....

Read the posts PROPERLY before you go shooting your mouth off

i acctually said what type of medium i USE

NOT what do i RECOMEND.

[digger]

my sincere appologies to you members of this forum,,,,,,, just one more thing to you digger.....

Read the posts PROPERLY before you go shooting your mouth off

i acctually said what type of medium i USE

NOT what do i RECOMEND.

Relax man no need to try and insult me. Did I ever say that you recommended SS?" I think not. I read the post pretty carefully actually did you?. All I was trying to do was point out that using SS is not normal practice. Also that I was interested in your results as it would be new research (well to me anyway).

It is always required for people to push the boundaries and find out new things with well thought out well informed experimental work otherwise we would never move forward would we?

If you must know I am a scientist at heart and the premise of all new discoveries is the ability to defend your theory with well reasoned argument backed up by experimental research where possible.

So ultimately I was not expecting to get this sort of response, it would have been nice for you to prove your intuition with a good proof which I would of course accept. I do however understand that it is very difficult to prove, however not impossible with a large amount of work and equipment hence why I assume no-one else has gone to the effort.

By the way I gave up smoking about 2 weeks ago so I may be a bit more confrontational than usual.

[Labs2008]

my kno3 is like sugar consistancy I mill it for about 8 hours and it becomes fine clay,flour like powder.
I have also milled my charcoal for over 24 hours just to make sure it was as fine as i could get it.
The dusting sulfur is then milled with the charcoal for 6 hours. I then mill the 3 together with 2% dextrin by weight from 2 to 8 hours.
I only make about 50 gram batches at a time. I use a mill with a 6 inch id

[Labs2008]

my original question was if 4-10 mesh lift charge would work for <2" shells? I did not have good luck with the 10 to 20 mesh stuff.

thanks to you all for the info so far.

[pyromaniac303]

You should be getting a decent lift from 20 mesh BP. Making the BP coarser will only slow it down and make the problem worse. I suspect its the charcoal you are using, although pine can still make reasonable lift. Could you post how you made your charcoal, and where the wood is from? One other thing, check that the stump remover has not changed constituents and added a fire depressant, then failed to update the MSDS.

Hope this was useful,
Paul

[Labs2008]

You should be getting a decent lift from 20 mesh BP. Making the BP coarser will only slow it down and make the problem worse. I suspect its the charcoal you are using, although pine can still make reasonable lift. Could you post how you made your charcoal, and where the wood is from? One other thing, check that the stump remover has not changed constituents and added a fire depressant, then failed to update the MSDS.

Hope this was useful,
Paul

I think it could be the charcoal the kno3 burns good and fast with other fuels such as al/sugar
I have tryed 2 different sources of kno3 one was technical grade 99% pure and the other spectricide stump remover 100% pure. Both powders look identical before and after being milled to a fine powder.
I get the pine from the lumber yard white pine 2x4 boards. I think i will try and make another batch with the pine and the lump and see if It might be my process. I am new too this making bp/lift. so perhaps I am doing something wrong.

I make my charcoal buy cutting the wood into equal size big enough to fit in my pan. I have a gas stove and good range hood so i do the process inside. I have an air tight lid with only one hole about 1/8 inch. I cook the wood usually only 3 to 4 pieces at a time. I let them cook until the smoke/gas from the whole stops. I light the gas coming out of the whole after about 15 minutes. Do to the small size it is relativly quicker process then most describe. The gas burns for usually 30 minutes or so I then let it go another 15 minutes. I then turn the heat off and plug the hole with a screw i have that fits air tight. The charcoal then cools for 45 minutes to 1 hour or so.
I then remove the charcoal and check its appearence and weight. I then give each piece a decent blow with a rubber mallot and if it cracks easily then i know it is done and proceed to crush up the rest. Then i put about 2 cups of this into the mill and let it go for up to 24 hrs. some times it has taken considerably less time. The lump charcoal which looks similar to my homemade charcoal i just crush and mill. I will make a batch and if i can i will video tape my tests

[Labs2008]

here s a link to the msds for spectricide stump remover msds it is in pdf format

Edited by Labs2008, 12 August 2008 - 12:32 AM.

[knackers]

....````BREAKING NEWS.`````...... but firstly.......if you feel insulted from my last post, it was not my intention, i certainly have not come here with that attitude...now lets get over it and move on.... I contacted ? university today and spoke with "Professor" Peter ,, and told him of our discussion,,, Peter ( my mate now )was very interested and loved to help,, is the senior physicist at ? uni, who`s speciality just so happens to be the study of metals and metalic compositions,, when i told him i use stainless steel medium, his reply was......... so do we !... but he also uses a s/s drum, "mine is rubber", but also he said they mill in an inert enviroment because they mill magnesium and titanium metals which are much more prone to ignition, . he also said it was SAFE to mill BP with stainless balls on a smaller scale such as mine/ours ? because with his experience he cannot see or understand how such a small impact density would initiate a spark with s/s, he also confirmed my findings that lead medium will contaminate BP.. he also said s/s will contaminate but on a minute scale,..... so there you have it, professor peter at ? university ? campus,, i will gladly give you his direct phone number if you like... he also said Professor C, metal compositions physicist, ? university ( whom does the most scientific milling in Australia will also confirm the safe use of s/s in small scale mills ,...........i just think that nobody has asked the right people the right questions.... if you still have doubts, ring professor Peter,, or ring a physicist at one of your universitys, you will find they will be more than happy to help......and tell you it is safe...... btw, keeping it in perspective, we are talking about a s/s ball falling 6" with drag coeficients of mill product and tub wall...... seamed obvious to me,, with 27 years of Austenetic stainless steel experience.

thaks digger, for the motivation to actually find this out

Edited by phill 63, 14 August 2008 - 07:49 AM.

[digger]

....````BREAKING NEWS.`````...... but firstly.......if you feel insulted from my last post, it was not my intention, i certainly have not come here with that attitude...now lets get over it and move on.... I contacted *******edit***** today and spoke with *******edit*****,, and told him of our discussion,,, *******edit***** ( my mate now )was very interested and loved to help,, is the senior physicist at *******edit*****, who`s speciality just so happens to be the study of metals and metalic compositions,, when i told him i use stainless steel medium, his reply was......... so do we !... but he also uses a s/s drum, "mine is rubber", but also he said they mill in an inert enviroment because they mill magnesium and titanium metals which are much more prone to ignition, . he also said it was SAFE to mill BP with stainless balls on a smaller scale such as mine/ours ? because with his experience he cannot see or understand how such a small impact density would initiate a spark with s/s, he also confirmed my findings that lead medium will contaminate BP.. he also said s/s will contaminate but on a minute scale,..... so there you have it, *******edit*****,, i will gladly give you his direct phone number if you like... he also said *******edit*****, metal compositions physicist, *******edit*****( whom does the most scientific milling in Australia will also confirm the safe use of s/s in small scale mills ,...........i just think that nobody has asked the right people the right questions.... if you still have doubts, *******edit*****,, or ring a physicist at one of your universitys, you will find they will be more than happy to help......and tell you it is safe...... btw, keeping it in perspective, we are talking about a s/s ball falling 6" with drag coeficients of mill product and tub wall...... seamed obvious to me,, with 27 years of Austenetic stainless steel experience.

thaks digger, for the motivation to actually find this out

What I was offended by was the fact that you accused me of not reading the posts properly and shooting my mouth off. Which of coarse was not the case do you agree now that you have re-read my replies?

I agree that the use of stainless for milling metals is standard practice. I would assume that more interesting steels are also used such as CA-15 and CA-40 which has a Brinell hardness of 470HB as it is clear that a harder material is needed than the medium being milled. There are of course no oxidisers present and the inert atmosphere prevents oxidation from starting a pyrophoric reaction.

As it happens I am an applied physicist albeit in a different field (as are a number of other members of this site from electronics research to rocket scientists), hence the questions as one has to be very cautious in this hobby and flippant statements could conceivably lead to accidents which of course no-one wants.

Are you saying that the lead contamination cause problems in BP? Are you now recommending that everyone should use SS?

Edited by digger, 14 August 2008 - 08:12 AM.

[digger]

here s a link to the msds for spectricide stump remover msds it is in pdf format

It would appear that you have a good source for the ingredients, the only cause for concern is that you are using dusting sulphur. Is it possible for you to get a source of a purer form of sulphur?

When I mill BP I do not pre-mill my ingredients as it seems to make very little difference to the final result (obviously give your charcoal a little crushing). So have you tried just chucking in the ingredients and milling for longer?

Do you have any video of the finished powder burning?

[MDH]

90% sulfur shouldn't be a problem since the other 5-10% is clay. While this can slow black powder down it doesn't tend to in a way that will signicantly downgrade it.

[digger]

90% sulfur shouldn't be a problem since the other 5-10% is clay. While this can slow black powder down it doesn't tend to in a way that will signicantly downgrade it.

Interesting. Do you have to account for this impurity by increasing the amount in the formula by just over 1 part?

[pyromaniac303]

You can usually tell if its the KNO3 as the burning will leave a residue.

Try burning a sample of a gram or half a gram on a sheet of paper. Commercial meal and good home made meal will burn off in the blink of an eye leaving hardly a trace, maybe a slight burn mark. Slower meal will burn through the paper. Poorly mixed meal, or meal with impurities in the oxidiser will splatter globs of unburnt or molten ingredients allover the paper.

The process you describe for charcoal sounds fine to me. One more thing is to try a different wood source. Wood from a timber supplier may be heat/pressure treated and also have impurities and preservatives. If you can find a willow or alder tree that would be useful.

Edited by pyromaniac303, 12 August 2008 - 11:22 AM.

[knackers]

[quote name='digger' date='Aug 12 2008, 09:18 AM' post='47536']
What I was offended by was the fact that you accused me of not reading the posts properly and shooting my mouth off. Which of coarse was not the case do you agree now that you have re-read my replies?

I agree that the use of stainless for milling metals is standard practice. I would assume that more interesting steels are also used such as CA-15 and CA-40 which has a Brinell hardness of 470HB as it is clear that a harder material is needed than the medium being milled. There are of course no oxidisers present and the inert atmosphere prevents oxidation from starting a pyrophoric reaction.

As it happens I am an applied physicist albeit in a different field (as are a number of other members of this site from electronics research to rocket scientists), hence the questions as one has to be very cautious in this hobby and flippant statements could conceivably lead to accidents which of course no-one wants.

Are you saying that the lead contamination cause problems in BP? Are you now recommending that everyone should use SS?



yes i am saying lead contamination causes problems with BP... as you know lead accumulates in your body, so whom ever smells your burning bp whether it be your black match, fountains, Gerbs or what ever especialy children will be accumulating lead, with no thanks to guess who ? ( the other chems are not so bad with respect to ppm, ) so you are an applied physicist, but you still went through all of that correspondence Knowing i was right ? that doesn`t make sence,, i thought these forums were to help each other,
no i am not suggesting everyboby change their medium for a moment, as i never had, i am saying, that i know what i am talking
about otherwise i would not be talking about it

[digger]

yes i am saying lead contamination causes problems with BP... as you know lead accumulates in your body, so whom ever smells your burning bp whether it be your black match, fountains, Gerbs or what ever especialy children will be accumulating lead, with no thanks to guess who ? ( the other chems are not so bad with respect to ppm, )

Fair point there will be a small amount of lead in the BP. According to Passfire there has been no research done on the cumulative effects of lead in BP smoke. It is easy enough to minimise this problem with the use of antimony hardened lead.

There are plenty of other things produced in pyro smoke that may be as much of a cause for concern. Although again I do not know of any studies into their long term effects, such as dioxins from chlorinated plastics, barium chloride / oxide etc, antimony compounds, there are even rumors that the Chinese still use HCB in some of their blue comps nasty stuff to be sure.

so you are an applied physicist, but you still went through all of that correspondence Knowing i was right ? that doesn`t make sence,, i thought these forums were to help each other,
no i am not suggesting everyboby change their medium for a moment, as i never had, i am saying, that i know what i am talking
about otherwise i would not be talking about it

Hey I do not know you were right. Intuition is one thing a proof is another. I have not done the calculations and there are couple of variables that I do not know without getting the books out so I am only relying on what you say.

Anyway it made for a good discussion, did it make you think?

There is always need for discussion especially when proposing something that is not the norm. No-one should blindly accept statements this is the premise of all knowledge.

Edited by digger, 12 August 2008 - 12:05 PM.